Crafty accused of copying Fruit PST

[CatPower]

Things are getting interesting...

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22635

[hgm]

Only for the brain-dead...

[Graham Banks]

Only for the brain-dead...

When Zach posts this, it does make one wonder what's going on though:

Are you really going to say that your bishop PST is "not nearly as similar as Rybkas"? That is just absurd.

I can imagine some reasons why it might be the same. But waffling about it isn't helping your case at all.

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22635

[geots]

Only for the brain-dead...

When Zach posts this, it does make one wonder what's going on though:

Are you really going to say that your bishop PST is "not nearly as similar as Rybkas"? That is just absurd.

I can imagine some reasons why it might be the same. But waffling about it isn't helping your case at all.

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22635

Far be it from me to rain on Muller's parade

[M ANSARI]

Only for the brain-dead...

Why do you say that? You have to admit that when only the addition of one constant makes the tables identical all the way through then it seems that something is not quite kosher. What you are seeing is exactly what Vas was accused of. Actually with Rybka, a much more robust method where a constant was multiplied and then the resulting number trucated was required to get a similar match. Here all that was required was a single +8 constant and you have an identical match for all the values. If this was the ICGA method used to identify "plagiarism", then clearly Crafty or Fruit are guilty of the same thing Rybka is guilty of. I of course do not consider the tuning of available data as doing anything wrong. The piece value data sets have been known for eons in chess circles and dynamically tuning them in the course of a chess game is what makes a human or an engine super strong at playing chess. I just don't agree to how it is perfectly explainable for one program, yet is used to condemn another program.

[hgm]

Why do you say that?

Because 'accusing' someone is cheap, and every idiot can do it (and unfortunately does...). Interesting would be announcement like "ICGA launches investigation against Crafty", or "ICGA has banned Crafty from WCCC"...

As for accusations against Crafty, they are especially ridiculous, since Crafty is open source, and the history of its PST can be traced back in time into minute detail.

[M ANSARI]

Why do you say that?

Because 'accusing' someone is cheap, and every idiot can do it (and unfortunately does...). Interesting would be announcement like "ICGA launches investigation against Crafty", or "ICGA has banned Crafty from WCCC"...

As for accusations against Crafty, they are especially ridiculous, since Crafty is open source, and the history of its PST can be traced back in time into minute detail.

Yes it can be traced back and has. It seems that at one point some of Fruit's PST values were copied by Crafty and tuned with a constant. While that may seem reasonable and part of a tuning process, this is exactly what Vas has been accused of. The thing is why is it reasonable and acceptable when Bob does it, and "plagiarims" when Vas does it. Also if this was overlooked by all the investigators at the ICGA with an open source program such as Crafty, how much of similar things are in the other closed source engines that participated in the ICGA tourney. It just seems that the rules are being applied unfairly.

[Rolf]

Maybe the ICGA will now investigate other closed sources if even FRUIT or CRAFTY contain copied code or PST numbers.

Isnt it better for computerchess as a whole if the campaign against Rybka led by no other than Bob himself would be stopped and revised in its consequences? Revolution is nice but then we must live with a whole lot of hypocrits if we execute someone who did nothing else than what looks now like a common habit which is exactly what Vas has stated over all the years.

[AdminX]

Why do you say that?

Because 'accusing' someone is cheap, and every idiot can do it (and unfortunately does...). Interesting would be announcement like "ICGA launches investigation against Crafty", or "ICGA has banned Crafty from WCCC"...

As for accusations against Crafty, they are especially ridiculous, since Crafty is open source, and the history of its PST can be traced back in time into minute detail.

Yes it can be traced back and has. It seems that at one point some of Fruit's PST values were copied by Crafty and tuned with a constant. While that may seem reasonable and part of a tuning process, this is exactly what Vas has been accused of. The thing is why is it reasonable and acceptable when Bob does it, and "plagiarims" when Vas does it. Also if this was overlooked by all the investigators at the ICGA with an open source program such as Crafty, how much of similar things are in the other closed source engines that participated in the ICGA tourney. It just seems that the rules are being applied unfairly.

Well one thing is for sure, and that is Bob will stand up like a man and defend himself against these accusations or stand up and admit that they are true. Unlike others he does not need a mouth piece to speak for him.

[mclane]

is crafty a commercial program ?