Trend by commercial authors!

[Adam Hair]

I have never regretted purchasing Hiarcs as it does have great and different analysis. However, I have yet to purchase the new chess explorer because I am waiting for one feature to be added. Mark always makes great and reliable software. And the Chess Explorer GUI looks awesome but without this one feature it would not yet replace Chessbase for me. (the feature is on the to do list apparantly) Although I may purchase it anyway just to get used to it.

What feature is it missing in your view?

The main feature I want and what I think Chessbase does better than other applications is material search.

I like using material search to find challenging positions in the middlegame, endgame etc. to use as training and study material.

Scid Vs. PC does this very well but Chessbase has a few extra features for this search that make it just a bit better.

I have read (somewhere) that Mark intends to put material search in to the Hiarcs Chess Explorer.

Could you list/explain the extra features that ChessBase has over SCID in regards to material search. I use this feature in SCID alot, but if ChessBase is better I would definitely try it out.

[tomgdrums]

I have never regretted purchasing Hiarcs as it does have great and different analysis. However, I have yet to purchase the new chess explorer because I am waiting for one feature to be added. Mark always makes great and reliable software. And the Chess Explorer GUI looks awesome but without this one feature it would not yet replace Chessbase for me. (the feature is on the to do list apparantly) Although I may purchase it anyway just to get used to it.

What feature is it missing in your view?

The main feature I want and what I think Chessbase does better than other applications is material search.

I like using material search to find challenging positions in the middlegame, endgame etc. to use as training and study material.

Scid Vs. PC does this very well but Chessbase has a few extra features for this search that make it just a bit better.

I have read (somewhere) that Mark intends to put material search in to the Hiarcs Chess Explorer.

Could you list/explain the extra features that ChessBase has over SCID in regards to material search. I use this feature in SCID alot, but if ChessBase is better I would definitely try it out.

The difference is that Chessbase (I have Chessbase 2009 Premium Light) allows you to also look up pawn formations within the material search. Blocked, passed, doubled etc. And it also allows you to specify some bishop attributes.

Not a big difference from Scid vs. PC but enough of one that it helps me search for training material. That may or may not be enough for someone to consider purchasing Chessbase over SCID or its offshoots.

But again I have used both (and I LOVE Scid vs PC!) but I am able to just get a little more specific with Chessbase and thus more easily find better training and study material.

I will say that I like SCID vs PC's opening reports a bit better than Chessbase.

But the extra bit of convenience provided in Chessbase has been a big help.

[geots]

Of late I see a change in the way a commercial engine is publicized. There are a few steps that happen prior the release of a new engine.

1. Some 'unknown member' comes all of a sudden and 'asks' about an impending about-to-be-released-but-not-yet version.
2. The Engine Author then will 'faithfully' answer such queries and others too will start asking some general questions to 'bump' the thread and get happy with the Author's replies.
3. The Engine release date will get postponed to build up a crescendo and mass hysteria.
4. Then the big day comes and the new version is born. All hail the new version...
5. Some fan-boys will now say how good it is and how it changed the way they looked at chess till now and they are really happy with the money charged. I mean they are REALLY happy that the quality of life has changed now. They also feel healthier than before!
6. In case of some authors they just disappear after a version is released and all promises of new versions are left to be forgotten. After all we all suffer from short term memory.
7. Now there is no trace of this unknown member also as he has served his purpose well and will re-surface when the engine has a newer version in the future!
8. I dunno if you have noticed it but I bet you will now.
9. I would like to inform engine authors that I am ready to don the role of the unknown member... er could I have a free copy of the engine?

Remember all further Chiron versions would be free if we JUST paid for one. Just for the fun of it, hold your breath until we see a free upgrade with a nice strength gain.

And don't you just love what they call having the world champion engine they are selling that won some now "second-rate tournament". And there is of course an across the board agreement by the best testing groups that the tournaments they won- "they" being a couple commercial engines I don't believe I have to name- might have had one top ten engine in it. And when they slap from the "World Champion" monicker on it- they know full well if all the Top 10 engines had entered- it would have quite likely have taken an act of God to keep them out of last place. But because of these great wins- we see the normal price take a leap and a jump. Along with using the exact method as well that you described.

I don't say the above out of spite or anything similar- I just spoke what I see to be the unadulterated truth. And of course when you mention the engines at the top- if you can't beat them - it's not brain surgery. Just call them illegal engines- even clones of others. Not worthy of the competition.
The whole thing is sad.


george

One of things everyone needs to remember is that people use engines for different reasons.

So reasonableness of the price point has more to do with whether or not the software meets each particular user's needs.

For example:

I have never regretted purchasing Hiarcs as it does have great and different analysis. However, I have yet to purchase the new chess explorer because I am waiting for one feature to be added. Mark always makes great and reliable software. And the Chess Explorer GUI looks awesome but without this one feature it would not yet replace Chessbase for me. (the feature is on the to do list apparantly) Although I may purchase it anyway just to get used to it.

I do NOT regret purchasing Komodo 4. Love it's analysis! Komodo 5 is awesome but does not do anything differently than K4 for analysis purposes. But it is technically "stronger" than K4.

So for me K5 was NOT a good purchase (not a knock on Don or Larry! I LOVE K4!) but for someone more interested in engine-engine contests K5 is most likely a good purchase.

Vitruvius was not a good purchase for me. (again not a knock on Roberto!! The engine runs fine!) However it has not lived up to my expectations of providing useful (ie: different or exciting post game analysis)

Stockfish is my favorite free engine but analysis with it can be dodgy but I still like it for self-play or practicing endgames.

So the value is based on the user's needs, wants and purpose for purchasing.

Well then just wait on Houdini 3 and get it. For your wants and needs, Houdini is the perfect companion. It can analyze with the best of them- so say the grandmasters. And for a change of pace- it can kick the shit out of all comers in a match- bar none. I really think we ought to try and talk Robert into doubling or tripling his price. He is not asking near enough.

Think about it. Impossible for us to have it both ways- it can only be one or the other. You pick. Either everyone is getting ripped off and grossly over-charged by 3 or 4 commercial authors- especially for "Deep" versions- or Robert needs to multiply his price by 3 or 4.


gts

[tomgdrums]

Of late I see a change in the way a commercial engine is publicized. There are a few steps that happen prior the release of a new engine.

1. Some 'unknown member' comes all of a sudden and 'asks' about an impending about-to-be-released-but-not-yet version.
2. The Engine Author then will 'faithfully' answer such queries and others too will start asking some general questions to 'bump' the thread and get happy with the Author's replies.
3. The Engine release date will get postponed to build up a crescendo and mass hysteria.
4. Then the big day comes and the new version is born. All hail the new version...
5. Some fan-boys will now say how good it is and how it changed the way they looked at chess till now and they are really happy with the money charged. I mean they are REALLY happy that the quality of life has changed now. They also feel healthier than before!
6. In case of some authors they just disappear after a version is released and all promises of new versions are left to be forgotten. After all we all suffer from short term memory.
7. Now there is no trace of this unknown member also as he has served his purpose well and will re-surface when the engine has a newer version in the future!
8. I dunno if you have noticed it but I bet you will now.
9. I would like to inform engine authors that I am ready to don the role of the unknown member... er could I have a free copy of the engine?

Remember all further Chiron versions would be free if we JUST paid for one. Just for the fun of it, hold your breath until we see a free upgrade with a nice strength gain.

And don't you just love what they call having the world champion engine they are selling that won some now "second-rate tournament". And there is of course an across the board agreement by the best testing groups that the tournaments they won- "they" being a couple commercial engines I don't believe I have to name- might have had one top ten engine in it. And when they slap from the "World Champion" monicker on it- they know full well if all the Top 10 engines had entered- it would have quite likely have taken an act of God to keep them out of last place. But because of these great wins- we see the normal price take a leap and a jump. Along with using the exact method as well that you described.

I don't say the above out of spite or anything similar- I just spoke what I see to be the unadulterated truth. And of course when you mention the engines at the top- if you can't beat them - it's not brain surgery. Just call them illegal engines- even clones of others. Not worthy of the competition.
The whole thing is sad.


george

One of things everyone needs to remember is that people use engines for different reasons.

So reasonableness of the price point has more to do with whether or not the software meets each particular user's needs.

For example:

I have never regretted purchasing Hiarcs as it does have great and different analysis. However, I have yet to purchase the new chess explorer because I am waiting for one feature to be added. Mark always makes great and reliable software. And the Chess Explorer GUI looks awesome but without this one feature it would not yet replace Chessbase for me. (the feature is on the to do list apparantly) Although I may purchase it anyway just to get used to it.

I do NOT regret purchasing Komodo 4. Love it's analysis! Komodo 5 is awesome but does not do anything differently than K4 for analysis purposes. But it is technically "stronger" than K4.

So for me K5 was NOT a good purchase (not a knock on Don or Larry! I LOVE K4!) but for someone more interested in engine-engine contests K5 is most likely a good purchase.

Vitruvius was not a good purchase for me. (again not a knock on Roberto!! The engine runs fine!) However it has not lived up to my expectations of providing useful (ie: different or exciting post game analysis)

Stockfish is my favorite free engine but analysis with it can be dodgy but I still like it for self-play or practicing endgames.

So the value is based on the user's needs, wants and purpose for purchasing.

Well then just wait on Houdini 3 and get it. For your wants and needs, Houdini is the perfect companion. It can analyze with the best of them- so say the grandmasters. And for a change of pace- it can kick the shit out of all comers in a match- bar none. I really think we ought to try and talk Robert into doubling or tripling his price. He is not asking near enough.

Think about it. Impossible for us to have it both ways- it can only be one or the other. You pick. Either everyone is getting ripped off and grossly over-charged by 3 or 4 commercial authors- especially for "Deep" versions- or Robert needs to multiply his price by 3 or 4.


gts

No one is getting overcharged by anyone because we don't have to buy any of these products. We all have choices.

And the Hiarcs price point includes the GUI (which at this point I have chosen NOT to buy for reasons stated above).

IF Robert decided to charge more then I would have to decide if it was worth it for me. That is Robert's choice to pick the price and mine to buy or not buy.

I really like Houdini 2! And will take a hard look at 3 when it comes out.

I am not sure why it always has to be a either/or issue with everyone. Free is not always better. And Commercial is not always better.

It is always a case by case basis.

[Mithu]

Before we go off topic tangentially let me remind you that I posted what I perceived was a marketing trend using the forum as a platform for advertisement. It is a humorous parody of what happens most of the time when an engine author resurfaces with some 1.0030152 + elo improvement over his previous versions and wants to sell it after a 'hectic' period of testing. Its just an observation and humorous at most. I do not want any fan-boy wars please. Prevention is better than cure.

Let engine authors know that we are intelligent. and will not fall for these traps!
No names please!

[Houdini]

IF Robert decided to charge more then I would have to decide if it was worth it for me. That is Robert's choice to pick the price and mine to buy or not buy.

I really like Houdini 2! And will take a hard look at 3 when it comes out.

The good news is that Houdini 3 will be priced the same as Houdini 2.
The even better news is that registered Houdini 2 users will get a 20% upgrade discount until the end of the month.

Cheers,
Robert

[Houdini]

No names please!

Without names your post comes off as a cheap rant.

I am a commercial author, and I don't feel any connection to what you wrote.
I try to avoid using the forums as ad space by using a Facebook page for my announcements. I don't have any anonymous accounts for making publicity. I don't offer any secret advantages to forum members for making publicity.

Robert

[bupalo]

that's very good news. Thanks Robert

[geots]

IF Robert decided to charge more then I would have to decide if it was worth it for me. That is Robert's choice to pick the price and mine to buy or not buy.

I really like Houdini 2! And will take a hard look at 3 when it comes out.

The good news is that Houdini 3 will be priced the same as Houdini 2.
The even better news is that registered Houdini 2 users will get a 20% upgrade discount until the end of the month.

Cheers,
Robert

And even better news than that would be when the sun comes up here it has been put out for sale.


george

[Mithu]

No names please!

Without names your post comes off as a cheap rant.

I am a commercial author, and I don't feel any connection to what you wrote.
I try to avoid using the forums as ad space by using a Facebook page for my announcements. I don't have any anonymous accounts for making publicity. I don't offer any secret advantages to forum members for making publicity.

Robert

There are so many commercial engine authors here
and
only you bothered to attack my post/statement and speak out against my satire.
That too amidst a busy launch schedule. (I know you must be very busy - or am I wrong?).
Why do you even want to respond to me?

Did my post affect you so badly?
Ah ha.. that says something...

I did not name anyone so why are you pi**ed off?
It was just a humorous post and if it was a 'cheap rant' your post was even more pointless and cheaper... in my thread
Let me make it clear once again that I had never named anyone. So let not any engine author take offense. It was just to stop such marketing gimmicks to brainwash gullible people for buying a 1.036 elo raise. Your engine (houdini right ?) clearly showed a higher jump than that therefore clearly I am not implying it was you.