World Chess Computer Champion?

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Laskos
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Laskos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:04 pm

hgm wrote:
Laskos wrote:In WCCC Komodo meets Hiarcs only in 1-2 games, and the total winning chances of Komodo in the ICGA WCCC 10 crappy games are about ~50%. If Komodo meets directly Hiarcs or Junior in some sort of final of 10 games, it has ~90% chances to win.
Indeed, that is how it works in championships, and a World Championship is no exception. You'd better win when it counts.

In the 2010 World Cup Soccer Brazil also only got one match against the Netherlands. In the World Championship speed skating you also only get to skate the 10 km once. If you don't run the fastest in the finals of the 100m dash Track&Field you're done. It always is like that. This is what they call 'sport'.

It seems to me you believe a World Championship is no good, unless it is absolutely sure in advance who will win it. And if it is not absolutly sure you will win yourself, you just don't participate, and proclaim yourself World Champion anyway.

If Komodo is not so much better than the other participants that it 'only' has a 50% chance to win, I don't see why it should win at all, and I certainly don't see why the rules than would have to be doctored to enhance its chances.
If the resolution power of WCCC is 150 Elo points, while top engines are separated by 30 points, then call it WCC Lottery. Besides that you always bring silly and misplaced analogies. Like that the titles "World Champion" or "Olympic Champion" are not often misleading (in Cycling, Tennis, etc.).

No one forbids ICGA to organize 10 round RR to determine the champion. You cannot do that in football on objective reasons.

And you don't admit one single important thing: ICGA WCCC is a relic from 1970es, when 150 points resolution was enough, as engines + hardware varied wildly in strength.

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hgm
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:16 pm

Laskos wrote:Besides that you always bring silly and misplaced analogies. Like that the titles "World Champion" or "Olympic Champion" are not often misleading (in Cycling, Tennis, etc.).
Of course. World Championships in Soccer, Hockey, Track-and-Field, Swimming, Skating, Volleyball, Cycling , etc. etc. are all extremey misplaced analogies for a World Championship in Computer Chess. Obviously they have nothing to do with each other. They are just World Championships, and for Computer Chess we of course must have a World Championship in stead...

Who is being silly here?

What you don't acknowledge is that when there is parctically no difference in strength between the opponents, it is really not very relevant who is World Champion. Who cares about 30Elo?

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M ANSARI
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by M ANSARI » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:25 pm

mwyoung wrote:
hgm wrote: Why should there be a match between Komodo and HIARCS? What would give Komodo the right to play 1 on 1 for the title? Are they topping the CCRL 40/40 list?

All this sounds completely insane to me.
Komodo obviously has gained that right to play a one on one match with Hiarcs. After Hiarcs has already won the 2013 world championship title fair and square against Komodo. Because Komodo was the only program in the world to lie about being the 2013 world champion.

I see, and so you think that Hiarcs is the WCCC?? Ok now I get it! Just to let you know you are in the minority, but hey if it makes you feel good, go ahead and say any crap you want. The fact is that the ICGA WCCC is a FARCE, it has NOTHING to do with the World Championship ... and I don't give a shit who says what to try and convince you that. If you want to be stupid enough to believe that Hiarcs is the WCCC then please don't try and force it on the rest of us. Hiarcs didn't even make it through the qualifying rounds of the TCEC, and for good reason ... it probably isn't even in the top 10 engines in strength. Yet you have no problem with it claiming to be the WCCC. Do you also have a bridge in the Sahara desert you want to try and sell stocks in? I can't believe that anyone is even taking you seriously! Give me a break!

By the way Komodo might not be in the top 2 on the rating list and yet still beat out Houdini and SF in TCEC because the hardware and the time controls were quite different. I can't think of one rating list that has that type of hardware tested at the slow time control. There is a very good possibility that Komodo WAS the strongest chess engine with those conditions. This is why TCEC was interesting, it was not another run of the mill tourney under blitz time controls ... it was at serious Long Time Control with serious hardware. There was also NO BIAS or NO IDIOTIC rules that disqualified participants and it INCLUDED ALL the top engines in the world ... something the ICGA can only dream about!

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hgm
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:08 pm

Fact is that HIARCS won the WCSC 2013 (so, not so WCCC, which went to Junior...). If you want to deny that, there is only one that looks stupid...

I guess the main stupidity here is that you assume that you have to be the best player to become World Champion. This is yet another misconception that is almost univerally false in the world of sports. Character, determination, courage are just as important as skill.

The whole idea that you could claim to be World Champion when you are too chicken to even compete is utterly ridiculous.
M ANSARI wrote:There was also NO BIAS or NO IDIOTIC rules that disqualified participants and it INCLUDED ALL the top engines in the world ... something the ICGA can only dream about!
Uh? Impossible Heron was disqualified. You don't seem very well informed...
Last edited by hgm on Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mjlef
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mjlef » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:13 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Vinvin wrote:
mjlef wrote:To follow up, the komodochess.com website now says "Winner of the 2013 TCEC tournament!"...
I'd prefer "Winner of the 2013 TCEC championship !" ;-)
Some part of the website have been corrected, but not all if you go into the website to see details on Komodo and to buy the product. If you go into the site to see detail on Komodo it still say this at the current time.

http://komodochess.com/KomodoTCEC-35a.htm

All versions

Help

Installation instructions
Komodo TCEC

price: $49.95

2013 World Computer Chess Engine Champion!

Rated #1 on the TCEC rating list

1. Komodo -- 3115
2. Stockfish -- 3103
3. Houdini -- 3088



This is the exact version (Komodo 1142) which won the TCEC world championship, ahead of Houdini 4 (beta) and Stockfish DD.



Compatible with all versions of Chessbase (CB 8, CB 9, CB 10, CB 11, CB 12, CB 13) and Aquarium

Available for Windows, Linux and Mac.

minimum requirement for Mac users: OSX 10.6

Supports up to 64 cores!

Note to Komodo 6 owners You get a 40% discount. You'll be given a discount code during checkout.


"I am deeply moved by the style of Komodo. In my opinion it's the perfect combination between computer accuracy and human positional understanding. I get the feeling it's taken positional understanding to the next level. After such an impressive performance I am going to test Komodo in my future work, especially in very positional play, and am really looking forward to working with it."
- GM Boris Avrukh

"I am extremely impressed by Komodo's play. I watched and analyzed every game and it was absolutely flawless positional chess, the likes of which has never been seen before by an engine... or human. Komodo clearly outplayed the other programs in the TCEC tournament."
- GM Roman Dzindzichashvili
I do not think you can quote sales information here, but in any case, if you refresh your browser, this page has also been update.

mjlef
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mjlef » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:22 pm

mwyoung wrote:
arjuntemurnikar wrote:
mwyoung wrote: Wccc is not in a disputed state.
Are you living under a rock?

dis·pute (dĭ-spyo̅o̅t′)
v. dis·put·ed, dis·put·ing, dis·putes
v.tr.
1. To argue about; debate.
2. To question the truth or validity of; doubt: Her friends disputed her intentions.

The very fact that this thread is so active and so hotly debated (by both sides equally) is enough to satisfy the definition of "disputed".
But it is my understanding the dispute or debte is over regarding Komodo. And Komodo is correcting its web site in regards to claiming wccc status.

I would start a new thread on icga. If you and others have a Axe to grind with them. I don't in regards to them being able to name the world champion. Just because a faction does not like icga rules. Does not mean there is no icga and title. No one has ever organized a group to ever dispute the icga title process.

So the ICGA WCCC title is not disputed. Not by TCEC, or Komodo it seems.
Mark,

I am afraid you are inaccurate. At no time has the Komodo site ever stated it won the WCCC. Our only claim was winning the TCEC and being the winning engine. Your entire thread name here is deceptive. I hope you are willing to admit that.

ouachita
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by ouachita » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:34 pm

Mark L.,
It's the "2013 Computer Chess Engine Champion!" statement that Mark Y. disagrees with here
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

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Laskos
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Laskos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:46 pm

hgm wrote:
Laskos wrote:Besides that you always bring silly and misplaced analogies. Like that the titles "World Champion" or "Olympic Champion" are not often misleading (in Cycling, Tennis, etc.).
Of course. World Championships in Soccer, Hockey, Track-and-Field, Swimming, Skating, Volleyball, Cycling , etc. etc. are all extremey misplaced analogies for a World Championship in Computer Chess. Obviously they have nothing to do with each other. They are just World Championships, and for Computer Chess we of course must have a World Championship in stead...

Who is being silly here?

What you don't acknowledge is that when there is parctically no difference in strength between the opponents, it is really not very relevant who is World Champion. Who cares about 30Elo?
Well, TCEC has a resolving power of ~30 points. And sure you are being silly here, because establishing the strongest is the _goal_ of a World Championship, that a WC doesn't have the resolving power to do that is a negative feature of that competition. In games of humans this is often the case because of the limited human resources. ICGA what, doesn't have enough electricity? I would like a statement from ICGA that they cannot afford more than 100kWh for their crappy, pre-historic championship with 150 points resolving power.
Last edited by Laskos on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

syzygy
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by syzygy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:52 pm

Laskos wrote:Well, TCEC has a resolving power of ~30 points. And sure you are being silly here, because establishing the strongest is the _goal_ of a World Championship, that a WC doesn't have the resolving power to do that is a negative feature of that competition. In games of humans this is often the case because of the limited human resources.
A WC is just a tournament called "World Championship". It's goal is to find a winner who can then call himself "World Champion" until the next edition.

The text on the Komodo homepage has been modified and now reflects the fact perfectly.

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Laskos
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Laskos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:55 pm

syzygy wrote:
Laskos wrote:Well, TCEC has a resolving power of ~30 points. And sure you are being silly here, because establishing the strongest is the _goal_ of a World Championship, that a WC doesn't have the resolving power to do that is a negative feature of that competition. In games of humans this is often the case because of the limited human resources.
A WC is just a tournament called "World Championship". It's goal is to find a winner who can them call himself "World Champion" until the next edition. It's just a title match, a match for a particular title.

The text on the Komodo homepage has been modified and now reflects the fact perfectly.
From dictionary:

Champion
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner


I think the second definition is mostly insinuated to by the marketers.

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