World Chess Computer Champion?

[mwyoung]

A lot of people think that the TCEC was actually the "real" WCC ... and why not. The setup was pretty impressive and the hardware even more so. You had a qualification stage, then another stage with only the top engines ... then another stage where the top two placers went toe to toe against each other. I cannot think of any other tournament that is as comprehensive with that much time per game and that type of powerful hardware and with so many games as to reduce the factor of luck. I think they can claim the WCC title without having their fingers crossed behind their backs. Komodo won it fair and square!

I do not agree.
They could write:
1)Komodo is clearly stronger than the world champion based on all the rating lists that we know.

2)Komodo won the TCEC that is the most important chess computer tournament.

And I agree Uri, as I have also said. Call TCEC for what it is, not for what it is not.

And it is not a WCCC event.

[hgm]

Any organisation can run a World Championship, and the winner can claim that title. The ICGA is one example.

Actually this is almost universally not true. The way it works in real life is that people who engage in a certain competative activity organize themselves into an official representative body, and delegate the right to organize a World Championship exclusively to that body.

So yes, I could jump on my bicycle, ride a few laps around the block, and then call myself "World Champion cycling". (Or "God of the Wheels", or whatever. There are no limits to how I could call myself.)

But I would be lying. Everyone would know that, and at best would think I was a pompous idiot.

Only one organization can award the title World Championship cycling, and that is the UCI. Because cyclist have agreed that the UCI is their representative body.

In Chess the globally representative body is FIDE. For a Chess title to be more than just a 'Mickey-Mouse title' it must be endorsed by FIDE. The largest (if not the only) organization of Chess-program authors is ICGA, and it is associated with FIDE. So they have the monopoly of awarding World-Championship titles in computer Chess.

The Komodo people are simply lying, for obvious commercial benefits.

Those are the facts. It is rather disappointing that the Komodo team resorts to such cheap methods for financial gain. If they think they deserve the title, the honorable way would be to compete for it. If I were the organizer of TCEC, I would consider this claim sufficient reason to ban Komodo from further participation, as they are obviously abusing the privilage of having been allowed to participate.

[Modern Times]

The largest (if not the only) organization of Chess-program authors is ICGA, and it is associated with FIDE. So they have the monopoly of awarding World-Championship titles in computer Chess.

That is your opinion and I disagree with it. I don't think anyone has a monopoly on that.

[hgm]

You are free to disagree. But what I voice is not an opinion, but a fact that everyone can verify. Look at almost any sport, and check how many different events are organized for them that call themselves "World Championship", and who organizes them.

People that do that will see that the overwhelming majority of cases is exactly as I described, and prove you wrong.

One can be in denial of the facts, but one cannot argue with them.

[Modern Times]

Actually this is almost universally not true. The way it works in real life is that people who engage in a certain competative activity organize themselves into an official representative body, and delegate the right to organize a World Championship exclusively to that body.

That was not the case with Boxing. At one point there were two organisations, each awarding their own World Champion titles. Maybe there still is, I'm not sure. So there is no monopoly on anyone organising a World Championship. That is a fact.

EDIT: In fact it seems in Boxing there are 4 World titles ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cu ... _champions

WBA
WBC
IBF
WBO

Fact or not ?

[Modern Times]

It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.

I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?

[hgm]

Note that I said "overwhelming majority", not "all". Yes, boxing is an exception. For some time Chess was also an exception, when two GMs did not agree with the cut FIDE would take from their pay, and started their own two-member 'representative body' with its own Mickey-Mouse title.

But these are rare exceptions, and at the very least require two competing organizations of substantial membership to not die a quick death.

None of the Boxing World titles is awarded by a single Boxing school or theatre, and not just any sponsor that organizes a Boxing match and feels he would sell more tickets if he calls it a World Championship does call it such.

I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?

Credibility comes from being a representative of a large community. Organizations tend to satisfy that condition. TCEC is just a single person, operating without endorsement by anyone (and of course not needing it either, as long as he doesn't want to award a World Title).

[mwyoung]

It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.

I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?

Again a straw man. Let call it what it is. TCEC is not a organization, it is one guy running a personal chess tournament . It is not any kind of organization. TCEC is not affiliated with FIDE or the ICGA. It is not a WCCC event. That is the facts.

What is disrespectful is what Komodo has done, and what Komodo is doing to TCEC.

By making such claims that TCEC is a WCCC event, Martin is not even making that claim. But Komodo is making that claim, because Komodo won a TCEC tournament.

[Modern Times]

Komodo is far more of a World Champion than Hiarcs. When Hiarcs gains 150 Elo then it can compete at the top. What I see here is a Hiarcs fan disillusioned that his favourite engine has been surpassed.

[lucasart]

I am not sure how this has evolved. That at chess program can self proclaim itself with World Championship Status.

http://komodochess.com/

From the Komodo site.

"2013 World Chess Engine Champion!"

What is strange about the Komodo claim and as far as I know. TCEC has never claimed itself with any kind of World Computer Chess Champion Status.

We have a WCCC history and a 2013 World Computer Champion and it is not Komodo.

http://icga.uvt.nl/wp-uploads/conferenc ... 202013.pdf

From ICGA
Final
standing 2013:

1. and World Champion Software Hiarcs.

Under Komodo's logic of claiming World Championship Status. Houdini 4 could also claim itself to be the World Computer Chess Engine Champion, because like TCEC. CCRL also is a rating list and performs tournaments to rate chess programs. And Right now Houdini 4 is the best chess engine on the CCRL list. And CCRL plays more programs and plays far more games then TCEC.

ICGA world championship is a farce. Everybody knows that. Yet Hiarcs puts on its website that it's the world champion, because it won the WCCC organized by ICGA.

The closest thing there is to a WCCC today is TCEC. So Komodo's claim is not unreasonable.

Anyway, all this is just marketing. The most reliable (and independant) measure of engine's strength are rating lists, like CEGT or CCRL.