superhuman engines on common hardware?

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when will we see top engines based on neural networks running on common hardware?

never
0
No votes
matter of weeks
4
9%
matter of months
8
18%
matter of years
25
57%
matter of decades
7
16%
 
Total votes: 44

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towforce
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by towforce »

smatovic wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:59 am grave digger....3.5 years later, all top ten engines on CCRL use neural networks.

The question is wrong in today's context: "common hardware" would have to include SOCs that cost just £0.50 (if you buy them by the thousand), run on thousandths of a volt, and have Bluetooth built in. Certainly it would need to include SOCs that run watches (right now, SOCs in watches cost more than £0.50).

Many phone SOCs now include GPUs, so the possibility of them running NN based engines becomes imaginable.

However, for me, your question misses a MUCH more important question: when will superhuman engines stop needing NNs?

I've discussed this in depth before, but here's a simple piece of evidence that today's NN's are inefficient:

1. they train on datasets containing a number of positions that is many orders of magnitude higher than the number of positions any human will ever see

2. at ply 1, they're still well behind top human players

Looking at a lot of evidence, I have concluded that these NNs are finding a large number of shallow (simple) patterns, but chess will yield to a small number of deep patterns. Once we have these deep patterns, I think that small, cheap SOCs with low power consumption will be good enough.
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smatovic
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by smatovic »

towforce wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:17 am ...
I think I agree, if we were able to extract the plain patterns from NNs we could build superior non-NN engines. The point with NNs is that the technique is quite comfortable, you 'just' need tons of data to train a network, to extract knowledge from these networks, or from the data source, is more complicated, the knowledge-base vs. black-box paradigma.

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towforce
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by towforce »

smatovic wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:47 amI think I agree, if we were able to extract the plain patterns from NNs we could build superior non-NN engines. The point with NNs is that the technique is quite comfortable, you 'just' need tons of data to train a network, to extract knowledge from these networks, or from the data source, is more complicated, the knowledge-base vs. black-box paradigma.

Fruit flies display many amazing complex behaviours with just 135,000 neurons (link). This show's what's possible.

I have been studying AI with interest since the early 1980s (this is where my interest in computer chess came from), and I believe I now have the big picture: NNs have taken us a long way forward over the last 10 years, but the big goal should be to find a way to generate those deep patterns. All credit to NNs and computer chess: without these recent developments, and what I've seen there (including having been lucky enough to have had an opportunity to discuss this very issue with a DeepMind developer), I would not have been able to make this leap of insight.
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wickedpotus
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by wickedpotus »

"when will we see top engines based on neural networks running on common hardware?"

We already do.. pretty much all mid range gaming desktops and even gaming laptops with common GPUs runs these just fine.. Even on low-end computers and cheap common Android phones top engines can be compiled and run top NN engines.
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by smatovic »

In Dec 2017 (OP) it was not that obvious when neural networks for chess will make it onto common hardware, but I guess some oldies in here saw it coming, if we look at NeuroChess from 1995 with ~100x less NPS due to NN-inferencing, then Giraffe from 2015 with ~10x less NPS and apply Moore's Law we get a date for ~2022...if we consider a switch from FP32 to INT8 weights with quantization and the NNUE incremental update trick - then that was probably the magic to get neural networks running in an competitive manner on common CPUs nowadays, or alike.

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Sopel
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by Sopel »

smatovic wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:58 am In Dec 2017 (OP) it was not that obvious when neural networks for chess will make it onto common hardware, but I guess some oldies in here saw it coming, if we look at NeuroChess from 1995 with ~100x less NPS due to NN-inferencing, then Giraffe from 2015 with ~10x less NPS and apply Moore's Law we get a date for ~2022...if we consider a switch from FP32 to INT8 weights with quantization and the NNUE incremental update trick - then that was probably the magic to get neural networks running in an competitive manner on common CPUs nowadays, or alike.

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Srdja
Stockfish NNUE is better than best version of Stockfish classical even on pentium 3, and maybe even on older cpus
dangi12012 wrote:No one wants to touch anything you have posted. That proves you now have negative reputations since everyone knows already you are a forum troll.

Maybe you copied your stockfish commits from someone else too?
I will look into that.
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by smatovic »

Sopel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:38 pm
smatovic wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:58 am In Dec 2017 (OP) it was not that obvious when neural networks for chess will make it onto common hardware, but I guess some oldies in here saw it coming, if we look at NeuroChess from 1995 with ~100x less NPS due to NN-inferencing, then Giraffe from 2015 with ~10x less NPS and apply Moore's Law we get a date for ~2022...if we consider a switch from FP32 to INT8 weights with quantization and the NNUE incremental update trick - then that was probably the magic to get neural networks running in an competitive manner on common CPUs nowadays, or alike.

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Srdja
Stockfish NNUE is better than best version of Stockfish classical even on pentium 3, and maybe even on older cpus
That is an interesting mind-game, how far can you backport NNUE? NNUE on a 6502 with 20 MB hard-drive?

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 86#p866086

...I am not sure if a SF13 NN w/o UE but FP32 weights would outperform a SF13 classic on a Intel Haswell from 2015 though.

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Sopel
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by Sopel »

smatovic wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:33 pm
Sopel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:38 pm
smatovic wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:58 am In Dec 2017 (OP) it was not that obvious when neural networks for chess will make it onto common hardware, but I guess some oldies in here saw it coming, if we look at NeuroChess from 1995 with ~100x less NPS due to NN-inferencing, then Giraffe from 2015 with ~10x less NPS and apply Moore's Law we get a date for ~2022...if we consider a switch from FP32 to INT8 weights with quantization and the NNUE incremental update trick - then that was probably the magic to get neural networks running in an competitive manner on common CPUs nowadays, or alike.

--
Srdja
Stockfish NNUE is better than best version of Stockfish classical even on pentium 3, and maybe even on older cpus
That is an interesting mind-game, how far can you backport NNUE? NNUE on a 6502 with 20 MB hard-drive?

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 86#p866086

...I am not sure if a SF13 NN w/o UE but FP32 weights would outperform a SF13 classic on a Intel Haswell from 2015 though.

--
Srdja
If you manage to compile stockfish for some old cpu I can train you a good net that fits on a floppy
dangi12012 wrote:No one wants to touch anything you have posted. That proves you now have negative reputations since everyone knows already you are a forum troll.

Maybe you copied your stockfish commits from someone else too?
I will look into that.
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towforce
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Re: superhuman engines on common hardware?

Post by towforce »

Quick OT: the voting is working in this thread (I voted "weeks")! :D
Writing is the antidote to confusion.
It's not "how smart you are", it's "how are you smart".
Your brain doesn't work the way you want, so train it!