Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

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lkaufman
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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by lkaufman » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:53 pm

Collingwood wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:37 pm
Laskos wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:28 pm
2 GM wins, 4 draws. In this range, I guess. In other metric, something like 80-90% range that this young active GM won't lose the match.
Young and active compared with 70-year-olds, but Smerdon isn't active compared with a professional.
boo

Yes, he hasn't played FIDE rated games for two years, so he may not be up to date on current opening theory. But of course that is totally irrelevant for knight odds play. I don't know how much he plays online, that would be probably the most relevant for this match. Maybe even 960 online play might be good prep.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by jp » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:21 pm

Larry, don't you think playing regular serious games is required for more than just keeping up with opening theory?

I'd think a GM who hasn't might be more prone to miscalculations, even hanging pieces.

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by JJJ » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:29 pm

I m happy Larry you re trying this match. Yes this time Komodo might finally be underdog. But maybe it won't last forever... I m like you, hoping one day the best engine could give a knight handicap against the strongest in the world.

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by Laskos » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:29 pm
I m happy Larry you re trying this match. Yes this time Komodo might finally be underdog. But maybe it won't last forever... I m like you, hoping one day the best engine could give a knight handicap against the strongest in the world.
Well, at tournament time control against top humans, this might be unachievable with current engines' paradigm, although the Komodo contempt makes first steps by a top engine to be more anti-human. But theoretically one can build a very anti-human engine, say one which creates 5-6 tactical puzzles 9-10 plies deep during each of the games. Even top humans might fall for 1-3 of these, the engine thus overcoming the heavy material handicap. Humans are very sensitive to material, give them only an overwhelming positional advantage, not material one, over Komodo, and even top humans might lose such a match.
Last edited by Laskos on Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by MikeB » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:11 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:17 pm
MikeGL wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:49 am
Sounds exciting. Thanks for the heads up.
Ballpark score could be 3.5 - 2.5 win for Komodo.
All draws plus 1 win for the engine.
Well, as Tal reportedly said when told that Bobby Fischer said in the 1960s that he could give knight odds to any woman chessplayer, "Fischer is Fischer, but a knight is a knight" (or something like that). I believe that eventually Komodo will win a match like this, but not this year, we need a major breakthru for that to happen in my opinion. We did beat MVL in a (fast) rapid match at handicaps averaging about a 2.0 eval for him, but knight odds is way more than that. In the opening, a knight is worth nearly four pawns, so even with the first move, White is down about 3.5.
Knight Odds?
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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by lkaufman » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:29 pm

jp wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:21 pm
Larry, don't you think playing regular serious games is required for more than just keeping up with opening theory?

I'd think a GM who hasn't might be more prone to miscalculations, even hanging pieces.
I would think that the best preparation for rapid games is to play rapid games, whether online or not. But of course they should be "serious", in the sense that the player must care about the result, whether due to prizes, pride in rating, or whatever. Standard tournament games among grandmasters are mostly about subtleties that are pretty unimportant when you are up a piece, but playing online rapid should keep you tactically sharp.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by lkaufman » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:44 pm

Laskos wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 pm
JJJ wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:29 pm
I m happy Larry you re trying this match. Yes this time Komodo might finally be underdog. But maybe it won't last forever... I m like you, hoping one day the best engine could give a knight handicap against the strongest in the world.
Well, at tournament time control against top humans, this might be unachievable with current engines' paradigm, although the Komodo contempt makes first steps by a top engine to be more anti-human. But theoretically one can build a very anti-human engine, say one which creates 5-6 tactical puzzles 9-10 plies deep during each of the games. Even top humans might fall for 1-3 of these, the engine thus overcoming the heavy material handicap. Humans are very sensitive to material, give them only an overwhelming positional advantage, not material one, over Komodo, and even top humans might lose such a match.
So far the indications are that the use of Komodo MCTS rather than normal Komodo is a bigger factor against humans than Contempt, but this hasn't really been proven in a controlled experiment, it's just my opinion from playing it myself and from the few knight odds matches with masters we have held. You may be right about the material vs. positional advantage claim, but I'm not so sure. I was able to win a rapid game vs. Stockfish 11 (on 7 threads) the other day at pawn and three move odds (f7 off, e4 and d4 played, WTM), which is less than knight odds based on evals and on engine vs engine games. Pawn and three moves is mostly a positional handicap. It may depend on the engine.
I think that some future hybrid of NN, MCTS, and A/B may be really awesome at giving handicaps, but it doesn't exist yet.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by Laskos » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:32 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:44 pm
Laskos wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 pm
JJJ wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:29 pm
I m happy Larry you re trying this match. Yes this time Komodo might finally be underdog. But maybe it won't last forever... I m like you, hoping one day the best engine could give a knight handicap against the strongest in the world.
Well, at tournament time control against top humans, this might be unachievable with current engines' paradigm, although the Komodo contempt makes first steps by a top engine to be more anti-human. But theoretically one can build a very anti-human engine, say one which creates 5-6 tactical puzzles 9-10 plies deep during each of the games. Even top humans might fall for 1-3 of these, the engine thus overcoming the heavy material handicap. Humans are very sensitive to material, give them only an overwhelming positional advantage, not material one, over Komodo, and even top humans might lose such a match.
So far the indications are that the use of Komodo MCTS rather than normal Komodo is a bigger factor against humans than Contempt, but this hasn't really been proven in a controlled experiment, it's just my opinion from playing it myself and from the few knight odds matches with masters we have held. You may be right about the material vs. positional advantage claim, but I'm not so sure. I was able to win a rapid game vs. Stockfish 11 (on 7 threads) the other day at pawn and three move odds (f7 off, e4 and d4 played, WTM), which is less than knight odds based on evals and on engine vs engine games. Pawn and three moves is mostly a positional handicap. It may depend on the engine.
I think that some future hybrid of NN, MCTS, and A/B may be really awesome at giving handicaps, but it doesn't exist yet.
In that handicap game pawn+3 moves, didn't you quickly get even more material advantage like 2 pawns and a very comfortable position? f7 pawn is big and affecting the King, an engine could give up a pawn to salvage the position. Also, SF has a simple contempt. I think it's more illuminating to play against Komodo from one of those 6-7 movers we researched 2-3 years ago.

I myself lose to Lc0 early versions faster than against latest SF. Early Lc0 had some intrinsic contempt, literally smacking me more in the vein of how I am beaten by a strong human. I am not sure what's the matter, MCTS search or NN or both.

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by Metaphysician » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:23 am

At these time controls, I expect Komodo to win the match comfortably.

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Re: Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

Post by lkaufman » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:37 am

Laskos wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:32 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:44 pm
Laskos wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 pm
JJJ wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:29 pm
I m happy Larry you re trying this match. Yes this time Komodo might finally be underdog. But maybe it won't last forever... I m like you, hoping one day the best engine could give a knight handicap against the strongest in the world.
Well, at tournament time control against top humans, this might be unachievable with current engines' paradigm, although the Komodo contempt makes first steps by a top engine to be more anti-human. But theoretically one can build a very anti-human engine, say one which creates 5-6 tactical puzzles 9-10 plies deep during each of the games. Even top humans might fall for 1-3 of these, the engine thus overcoming the heavy material handicap. Humans are very sensitive to material, give them only an overwhelming positional advantage, not material one, over Komodo, and even top humans might lose such a match.
So far the indications are that the use of Komodo MCTS rather than normal Komodo is a bigger factor against humans than Contempt, but this hasn't really been proven in a controlled experiment, it's just my opinion from playing it myself and from the few knight odds matches with masters we have held. You may be right about the material vs. positional advantage claim, but I'm not so sure. I was able to win a rapid game vs. Stockfish 11 (on 7 threads) the other day at pawn and three move odds (f7 off, e4 and d4 played, WTM), which is less than knight odds based on evals and on engine vs engine games. Pawn and three moves is mostly a positional handicap. It may depend on the engine.
I think that some future hybrid of NN, MCTS, and A/B may be really awesome at giving handicaps, but it doesn't exist yet.
In that handicap game pawn+3 moves, didn't you quickly get even more material advantage like 2 pawns and a very comfortable position? f7 pawn is big and affecting the King, an engine could give up a pawn to salvage the position. Also, SF has a simple contempt. I think it's more illuminating to play against Komodo from one of those 6-7 movers we researched 2-3 years ago.

I myself lose to Lc0 early versions faster than against latest SF. Early Lc0 had some intrinsic contempt, literally smacking me more in the vein of how I am beaten by a strong human. I am not sure what's the matter, MCTS search or NN or both.
Yes, I did indeed win a second pawn quite soon, with more to follow. I think that Stockfish played this game quite sub-optimally. So I guess by "positional advantage" you mean "positional advantage excluding king safety advantage". It does seem to be harder for humans to capitalize on advantages in development and piece placement than it does to take advantage of material or safer king. But for me king safety is in the positional category. It's just a matter of terminology.
What handicap do you need to be a fair match for either Komodo, Komodo MCTS or early (10,000 series) Lc0? I think you once estimated your level as 1800, if so I'm guessing a rook is almost but perhaps not quite enough? But maybe these engines already deteriorate too much down a rook, I'm not sure. I think our webmaster Jesse, who is around that Elo level, found rook handicap to be appropriate. But depends on time limit of course.
Komodo rules!

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