Unfair Poll

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towforce
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by towforce » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:19 pm

hgm wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:50 am
Why is it so all-important for the CTF dwellers to force their presence on a chess community that clearly has no interest in them?

Good question, actually! A lot of big, historical problems could have been avoided with this simple solution. Instead of hanging around where they weren't wanted, why didn't the Tutsis gracefully pack their belongings in suitcases, tip their hats politely on the way to the railway stations, and just take trains out of Rwanda? The Hutus were the majority, and clearly weren't interested in the Tutsis staying. By hanging around, they were just annoying the righteous majority, to the point where, finally, they just had to do something about it - and who can blame them? The Tutsis just didn't know when to take a hint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
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hgm
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by hgm » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:37 pm

The issue is not whether I can imagine that, but whether there in fact are CCC posters that do like to discuss politics the way it is done in CTF.

A large majority of the CCC posters have indicated by their vote they don't want to visit it. Most want to outright close it, those that voted for keeping it open often motivate this by "it doesn't bother me because I never go there". From the vote so far it seems that the only people who want to keep CTF open in order to actually visit it are those who already visit it quite often. There are indeed a fair number of people amongst those that also frequently post in CCC: Thorsten, Kai, Chris, Ed. And of course me, but I can live without it.

I don't think it would be much of a problem for those people if CTF was continued separately from CCC. They seem so dedicated to it, that they would certainly follow it wherever it goes.

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hgm
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by hgm » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:48 pm

towforce wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:19 pm
hgm wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:50 am
Why is it so all-important for the CTF dwellers to force their presence on a chess community that clearly has no interest in them?

Good question, actually! A lot of big, historical problems could have been avoided with this simple solution. Instead of hanging around where they weren't wanted, why didn't the Tutsis gracefully pack their belongings in suitcases, tip their hats politely on the way to the railway stations, and just take trains out of Rwanda? The Hutus were the majority, and clearly weren't interested in the Tutsis staying. By hanging around, they were just annoying the righteous majority, to the point where, finally, they just had to do something about it - and who can blame them? The Tutsis just didn't know when to take a hint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
That is a silly comparison. Changing the URL of your website is nothing like relocating a people. Changing host would be slightly more work, but still about 5 orders of magnitude easier than moving a single family to another residence. And the advantages are big: all the issues that proved so disturbing to the CTF community, like being hosted by a shop with ulterior motives, no root access to the server, an admin that is not democratically elected, people voting in their elections that harly ever post there... Al that would be solved if you run your own website. And nowadays that costs next to nothing, and will only get cheaper.

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towforce
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by towforce » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:58 pm

hgm wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:48 pm
towforce wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:19 pm
hgm wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:50 am
Why is it so all-important for the CTF dwellers to force their presence on a chess community that clearly has no interest in them?

Good question, actually! A lot of big, historical problems could have been avoided with this simple solution. Instead of hanging around where they weren't wanted, why didn't the Tutsis gracefully pack their belongings in suitcases, tip their hats politely on the way to the railway stations, and just take trains out of Rwanda? The Hutus were the majority, and clearly weren't interested in the Tutsis staying. By hanging around, they were just annoying the righteous majority, to the point where, finally, they just had to do something about it - and who can blame them? The Tutsis just didn't know when to take a hint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
That is a silly comparison. Changing the URL of your website is nothing like relocating a people. Changing host would be slightly more work, but still about 5 orders of magnitude easier than moving a single family to another residence. And the advantages are big: all the issues that proved so disturbing to the CTF community, like being hosted by a shop with ulterior motives, no root access to the server, an admin that is not democratically elected, people voting in their elections that harly ever post there...

Make no mistake: what the good, fine "CCC" race is doing here is analogous to an ethnic cleansing. The irony is that the people and behaviours you're complaining about (being hosted by a shop with ulterior motives, no root access to the server, an admin that is not democratically elected, people voting in their elections that hardly ever post there) will all still be in the CCC after the expulsion - and you'll see more of these complaints, not fewer.

The racism/abuse problem in CTF is analogous to Covid-19: until we have good technical remedies (some forums are already being moderated by AI), the interim solution is to have a jolly good lockdown - and we've been asking for the appointment of some moderators who have volunteered to do this work!
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hgm
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by hgm » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:16 pm

Not all ethnic cleansing is bad. If two groups cannot stand each other, it is best to separate them. It is the injustice that usually accompanies it that gives it a bad name. Often it is just an euphemism for genocide, and in other cases for robbing one group of all its possessions, and turning them into homeless refugees. That is of course evil. Having to move large crowds is of course bad, but it is better than a perpetual civil war. Of course peacefully coexisting would be best for everyone. But some people are just not capable of that.

Cyprus is an interesting example. These Greeks and Turks really hate each other's guts. In the long run everyone there is perhaps better off living in their own part of the island.

If cleansing only means you have to change ISP...

corres
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by corres » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:19 pm

Ras wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:53 pm
...
And yeah, I did participate in some discussions, but both leftists and the rightists are quick to turn any thread into a pointless and unthinking (mocking the T in CTF) "nazi! commie!" mess of mutual vitriol that is a shame for TC and therefore impacts everyone also on CCC through its sheer existence. Since both sides totally don't get that they themselves are also part of the problem, not just the "other" side, it's beyond redemption.
...
I am afraid you miss the situation, behind repeatedly saying "you are liberalized/communist/fascist/Nazi/" or you are stupid/moron/idiot/monomaniac/etc. the dispute is substantial. If you read fully the row of posts you can be convinced about it. It is pity the used style may be unpleasant for a fine soul, but we endure each others.
I was never offended by political marks, a personal offend (what sometimes happened) is another issue, but I can save myself. (Laskos, Brendan, Guenter can talk about it...)
The essence: From political divergence prohibited to make vanity question!

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towforce
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by towforce » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:34 pm

hgm wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:16 pm
Having to move large crowds is of course bad, but it is better than a perpetual civil war.

You won't be moving the specific complainers you mentioned (charter/foundation principles etc) out of CCC: they'll still be there - and in future, that's where those complaints will be made.

Of course peacefully coexisting would be best for everyone. But some people are just not capable of that.

You speak as though the period of responsive moderation we have been asking for had been tried. It hasn't.

Cyprus is an interesting example. These Greeks and Turks really hate each other's guts. In the long run everyone there is perhaps better off living in their own part of the island.

Good point - but IMO you've got that the wrong way around: in your words, "in the long run" we're all better off getting to know as wide a variety of people as possible. You stop hating people from a particular religion or geographical origin when their children come around to play with your children. Segregation is only ever a short term solution.
Writing is the antidote to confusion.
It's not "how smart you are", it's "how are you smart".

Madeleine Birchfield
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by Madeleine Birchfield » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:04 pm

talkchess.com should be abandoned altogether. Those who want to stay in the Computer Chess Club could move to computerchessclub.com, and those who want to stay in the Chess Thinkers Forum could move to chessthinkersforum.com; both sites could be hosted by chessusa.com. That way the divorce is more like the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, which doesn't exist anymore, having been replaced by the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Currently taking a 3-month break from talkchess

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mclane
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by mclane » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:29 pm

???
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

Leo
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Re: Unfair Poll

Post by Leo » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:10 am

Milos wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:25 pm
etihan92 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:13 pm
As someone who is visiting CTF for more than 6 months now, I see less and less activity there. Maybe the best option would be to close it.
Here is another fake account "voting" in CTF survey.
Being a member for 20 days, he is reading members only visible CTF for 6 months. :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is becoming really ridiculous.
Are we to assume that the moderators are screening for bogus new accounts?
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

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