Anti-Engine Puzzle

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

Michel wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:01 pm
peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:04 am
Michel wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:37 am Interesting!!

I find it amazing that the optimal solution is 46 moves, which is exactly the same as the "official solution", but the official solution is very different.

Would it be possible to check with Freezer that the official solution is correct?
Well, I'd say, that's what I already did here, cause the official solution isn't very diferent at all to freezer's one to me, as for the way of forcing the mate, except that another one possible mating field is chosen. Have a closer look at the two solution- lines:

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 75#p886675

Bu maybe you mean, to give in each move of author's solution into database, of course I could try this too, but it would take some time having to read out 46 moves of one .pgn and give them in manually into board of database. When I'll find time for that, I'll give it a try and return.

Don't know when but till then regards
:)
Of course. I am just surprised that someone without a computer could produce a seemingly optimal solution....
8/8/2k5/3N4/8/4N1p1/4Kprp/B5bn w - - 0 1
1.Kf1 ...Kd6!? (#44) (...Kc5 #45 2.Be5 Kb5 3.Nc3?! #46 ((Nf5 #44)) 2.Bd4 Kc6 3.Nc3!? (#44 3.Nb4 #43) Kd6 !?(#42, ...Kc7 #43) 4.Nc4 Ke6(?! # 37 ...Kd6 #41) 5.Be5 Kd7 6. Na5 Ke6 7.Bb8 Kd7 8.Nd5 ?!(#35 Na4 #33) ... Ke6 !?(# 32 ...Kc8 #34) 9.Nb6 Kf5 10.Nac4 ?! (#34 Nb3 #31)

Here Black had decided to move to King's side, White could have mated shorter then but in author's solution yet at King's side too, but obviously he gave away the two moves later on with Black again. With 10.Nb3 instead of Nac4 3 moves could have been spared, as much as that had been given away at first 10 moves.

It got too boring and time consuming for me here cause you already see, without engine Seoane didn't really make it to find the very best and shortest way with best moves from both sides neither and ended up with same 46 moves DTM more or less luckily.

But this isn't a mate in x-problem, it's a study, you see?

So the DTM doesn't matter at all, 50 moves boundary doesn't count as for studies neither, so what?

If you still find it amazing to find a correct (even if not quite correct as for 2 or three moves DTM) way to mate without engine at all, you just haven't understood the principles the mating lines follow as well as Seoane did back in 1922.

Nevermind, neither have I (fully) regards
:)
Peter.
Michel
Posts: 2272
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:50 am

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by Michel »

peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:33 pm
Michel wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:01 pm
peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:04 am
Michel wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:37 am Interesting!!

I find it amazing that the optimal solution is 46 moves, which is exactly the same as the "official solution", but the official solution is very different.

Would it be possible to check with Freezer that the official solution is correct?
Well, I'd say, that's what I already did here, cause the official solution isn't very diferent at all to freezer's one to me, as for the way of forcing the mate, except that another one possible mating field is chosen. Have a closer look at the two solution- lines:

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 75#p886675

Bu maybe you mean, to give in each move of author's solution into database, of course I could try this too, but it would take some time having to read out 46 moves of one .pgn and give them in manually into board of database. When I'll find time for that, I'll give it a try and return.

Don't know when but till then regards
:)
Of course. I am just surprised that someone without a computer could produce a seemingly optimal solution....
8/8/2k5/3N4/8/4N1p1/4Kprp/B5bn w - - 0 1
1.Kf1 ...Kd6!? (#44) (...Kc5 #45 2.Be5 Kb5 3.Nc3?! #46 ((Nf5 #44)) 2.Bd4 Kc6 3.Nc3!? (#44 3.Nb4 #43) Kd6 !?(#42, ...Kc7 #43) 4.Nc4 Ke6(?! # 37 ...Kd6 #41) 5.Be5 Kd7 6. Na5 Ke6 7.Bb8 Kd7 8.Nd5 ?!(#35 Na4 #33) ... Ke6 !?(# 32 ...Kc8 #34) 9.Nb6 Kf5 10.Nac4 ?! (#34 Nb3 #31)

Here Black had decided to move to King's side, White could have mated shorter then but in author's solution yet at King's side too, but obviously he gave away the two moves later on with Black again. With 10.Nb3 instead of Nac4 3 moves could have been spared, as much as that had been given away at first 10 moves.

It got too boring and time consuming for me here cause you already see, without engine Seoane didn't really make it to find the very best and shortest way with best moves from both sides neither and ended up with same 46 moves DTM more or less luckily.

But this isn't a mate in x-problem, it's a study, you see?

So the DTM doesn't matter at all, 50 moves boundary doesn't count as for studies neither, so what?

If you still find it amazing to find a correct (even if not quite correct as for 2 or three moves DTM) way to mate without engine at all, you just haven't understood the principles the mating lines follow as well as Seoane did back in 1922.

Nevermind, neither have I (fully) regards
:)
Ok I see. The "solution" in 46 moves by Seoana was an accident.... Thanks for checking!
Ideas=science. Simplification=engineering.
Without ideas there is nothing to simplify.
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

Michel wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:38 pm Ok I see. The "solution" in 46 moves by Seoana was an accident.... Thanks for checking!
Well, that's not quite, what I meant.
:)
If you get the pattern of the moves, chance you'll end up with somewhat around 46 is probably bigger then the one ending up with 56 or 36.
As you see in my comparsions of the moves of author's and of freezer's solution lines is always <= 3 in difference of the first 10 moves, later on the differences probably won't get bigger but smaller and less frequent. And there's more then an accidental chance to get back moves you invest too much from White's side later on from Black's side again, if the pattern works in one way and another one similarly.

Really forced single best moves are much less along the lines, then two or three or more of them per position with identical DTM, and then to keep the thread's title in mind:
Game playing engines need more than half of the 46 moves forward to start to see the mate arising at all with not too long TC and without going a line like the author's one backward
:)
Peter.
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:20 pm If you get the pattern of the moves, chance you'll end up with somewhat around 46 is probably bigger then the one ending up with 56 or 36.
As you see in my comparsions of the moves of author's and of freezer's solution lines is always <= 3 in difference of the first 10 moves, later on the differences probably won't get bigger but smaller and less frequent. And there's more then an accidental chance to get back moves you invest too much from White's side later on from Black's side again, if the pattern works in one way and another one similarly.
E.g going backward with Bluefish with 32G hash and 12x3GHz works rather quickly as for the latest 20 moves. At 25th (after 25.Be7 of author's line):

8/4B3/3NN1k1/8/8/6p1/5prp/5Kbn b - - 0 1

Analysis by Bluefish v13:

25...Kh6 26.Ng5 Kh5 27.Ngf7 Kg4 28.Bf6 Kh5 29.Ne5 Kh6 30.Nf5+ Kh7 31.Nd4 Kg8 32.Ne6 Kh7 33.Bg7 Kg8 34.Bf8 Kh7 35.Ng5+ Kh8 36.Nc6 Kg8 37.Bh6 Kh8 38.Nd8 Kg8 39.Nde6 Kh8 40.Bg7+ Kg8 41.Bf8 Kh8 42.Bh6 Kg8 43.Nf4 Kh8 44.Nh5 Kg8 45.Nf6+ Kh8 46.Nf7#
+- (#21) Depth: 47/43 00:00:51 1062MN

From here author had rather correct DTM, as it seems.

Going backward one more ply, Bluefish thinks there's a mate in 19 instead of 21:

8/8/3NNBk1/8/8/6p1/5prp/5Kbn w - - 0 1

Analysis by Bluefish v13:

25.Bc3 Kh5 26.Nf8 Kg5 27.Bd4 Kf4 28.Ne6+ Kf3 29.Bb6 Kg4 30.Be3 Kf3 31.Bd2 Kg4 32.Nf8 Kh5 33.Bc1 Kh4 34.Ng6+ Kg4 35.Ne5+ Kh4 36.Ne4 Kh3 37.Nf6 Kh4 38.Ng6+ Kh3 39.Nf4+ Kh4 40.Ne6 Kh3 41.Bh6 Kh4 42.Bg5+ Kh3 43.Nf4#
+- (#19) Depth: 51/40 00:02:11 2777MN

Could well be, that's the three moves difference in DTM after 10 moves of freezer's and of Seoane's lines still, I would call a difference like this in DTM and moves of such a long line an "accident" maybe, but not the solution line itself, if I were able to fully understand the patterns at all
:)
Peter.
Paloma
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:07 pm
Full name: Herbert L

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by Paloma »

Yes, 25.Bc3 and 25.Bb2 are matt in 19

Engine: ChestUCI Ver.5.2
von Franz Huber

19/19 1:02 +M19 1.Lb2 Kh6 2.Sf8 Kg5 3.Ld4 Kf4 4.Se6+ Kf3
5.Lc5 Kg4 6.Le3 Kf3 7.Ld2 Kg4 8.Sf8 Kh5
9.Lc1 Kh4 10.Sg6+ Kg4 11.Se5+ Kh4
12.Se8 Kh5 13.Sf6+ Kh4 14.Sf3+ 960

19/19 1:02 +M19 1.Lc3 Kh6 2.Sf8 Kg5 3.Ld4 Kf4 4.Se6+ Kf3
5.Lc5 Kg4 6.Le3 Kf3 7.Ld2 Kg4 8.Sf8 Kh5
9.Lc1 Kh4 10.Sg6+ Kg4 11.Se5+ Kh4
12.Se8 Kh5 13.Sf6+ Kh4 14.Sf3+ 960

Best Move: Lf6-c3 Zeit: 1:02.531 min K/s: 960.069 Knoten: 59.769.128
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

Paloma wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:17 pm Yes, 25.Bc3 and 25.Bb2 are matt in 19

Biggest detour in Seoane's line is 22.Bd4 (#21). 22.Nd3 would have been #16:

8/8/2k5/3N4/8/4N1p1/4Kprp/B5bn w - - 0 1

1. Kf1 Kd6 2. Bd4 Kc6 3. Nc3 Kd6 4. Nc4+ Ke6 5. Be5 Kd7 6. Na5 Ke6 7. Bb8 Kd7
8. Nd5 Ke6 9. Nb6 Kf5 10. Nac4 Ke4 11. Be5 Kf5 12. Bc3 Ke6 13. Bd4 Ke7 14. Be5
Ke6 15. Bc7 Kf5 16. Nd2 Ke6 17. Ne4 Kf5 18. Nc5 Kg4 19. Nc4 Kf3 20. Be5 Kg4 21.
Nd6 Kf3

8/8/3N4/2N1B3/8/5kp1/5prp/5Kbn w - - 0 22

22. Nd3 Ke3 23. Nb4 Kf3 24. Nd5 Kg4 25. Bf4 Kf3 26. Bd2 Kg4 27. Ne7 Kh4
28. Nf7 Kg4 29. Ne5+ Kh4 30. Bc1 Kh3 31. Ng8 Kh4 32. Nf6 Kh3 33. Nc6 Kh4 34.
Nd8 Kh3 35. Ne6 Kh4 36. Bg5+ Kh3 37. Nf4#

That's from freezer's database at this one point of the author's line but it can be reproduced by Backward with SF too.

8/8/3N4/2N1B3/8/5kp1/5prp/5Kbn w - - 0 1

Analysis by CorChess NNUE 1.3 100321:

22.Sd3 Ke3 23.Sb4 Kf3 24.Sd5 Kg4 25.Lf4 Kh5 26.Se7 Kh4 27.Ld2 Kg4 28.Sc6 Kh5 29.Se5 Kh4 30.Se4 Kh5 31.Sf6+ Kh4 32.Sf3+ Kh3 33.Sg5+ Kh4 34.Se6 Kh3 35.Lc1 Kh4 36.Lg5+ Kh3 37.Sf4#
+- (#16) Tiefe: 75/32 00:00:51 1574MN

Of course DTM from starting position still is 46, just didn't follow the author's solution as far as that with freezer's database to see the detours leading to this one final shortcut.
Funny endgame.
:)
Peter.
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:49 pm Of course DTM from starting position still is 46
Yet now made a complete .pgn with comparison of the author's solution and freezer's database of the starting position from first to 35th move. At any alternative move with different DTM commented:
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.03.08"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Seoane, J."]
[Black "Study, 1922."]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/8/2k5/3N4/8/4N1p1/4Kprp/B5bn w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "91"]

1. Kf1 Kd6 $5 {[%eval 32680,0]} (1... Kc5 {[%eval 32678,0]} 2. Be5 Kb5 3. Nf5
Kc5 4. Nde7 Kb6 5. Bd6 Ka6 6. Ng7 Kb6 7. Ne6 Ka6 8. Nd8 Kb6 9. Nc8+ Kb5 10. Ba3
Kc4 11. Na7 Kb3 12. Be7 Kc3 13. Ne6 Kd3 14. Nc7 Kd4 15. Nab5+ Kc4 16. Bd6 Kb3
17. Bc5 Ka4 18. Nd6 Ka5 19. Bd4 Kb4 20. Be3 Ka5 21. Bc5 Ka4 22. Na6 Ka5 23. Nb8
Ka4 24. Nc6 Kb3 25. Bb4 Kc2 26. Nd4+ Kd3 27. Ne6 Ke3 28. Bc3 Kd3 29. Bd4 Kd2
30. Nc5 Kc2 31. Nc4 Kc1 32. Ne3 Kd2 33. Nd5 Kc2 34. Bc3 Kc1 35. Nb4 Kb1 36.
Nca6 Kc1 37. Nc7 Kb1 38. Nb5 Kc1 39. Na3 Kd1 40. Nc6 Kc1 41. Na5 Kd1 42. Bb4
Kc1 43. N5c4 Kd1 44. Bc5 Kc1 45. Be3+ Kd1 46. Nb2# {freezer}) 2. Bd4 Kc6 3. Nc3
$5 {[%eval 32680,0]} (3. Nb4+ {[%eval 32682,0]} Kd6 4. Nc4+ Kc7 5. Na5 Kd6 6.
Na6 Ke6 7. Bc5 Kd5 8. Ba3 Ke6 9. Nb8 Kf6 10. Nb7 Ke6 11. Nc5+ Kd6 12. Nca6+ Kd5
13. Nc7+ Kd4 14. Nd7 Kd3 15. Bc5 Kc4 16. Ba7 Kb4 17. Ne5 Ka4 18. Bb6 Kb4 19.
Be3 Ka5 20. Nc6+ Ka4 21. Bd2 Kb3 22. Ne5 Kc2 23. Bb4 Kb3 24. Ba5 Ka3 25. Bc3
Ka2 26. Bd2 Kb2 27. Nb5 Kc2 28. Ba5 Kb2 29. Nd4 Ka2 30. Nd3 Ka1 31. Bc3+ Ka2
32. Bb2 Kb1 33. Bc1 Ka2 34. Nb4+ Ka1 35. Ba3 Kb1 36. Ndc6 Ka1 37. Ne5 Kb1 38.
Ned3 Ka1 39. Bb2+ Kb1 40. Bc1 Ka1 41. Ba3 Kb1 42. Nc5 Ka1 43. Na4 Kb1 44. Nc3+
Ka1 45. Nc2#) 3... Kd6 $5 {[%eval 32684,0]} (3... Kc7 {[%eval 32682,0]}) 4.
Nc4+ Ke6 $2 {[%eval 32694,0]} (4... Kc6 {[%eval 32686,0]}) 5. Be5 Kd7 6. Na5
Ke6 $5 {[%eval 32700,0]} (6... Ke7 {[%eval 32698,0]}) 7. Bb8 Kd7 8. Nd5 $6 {
[%eval 32698,0]} (8. Na4 {[%eval 32702,0]}) 8... Ke6 $6 {[%eval 32704,0]} (8...
Kc8 {[%eval 32700,0]}) 9. Nb6 Kf5 10. Nac4 $2 {[%eval 32700,0]} (10. Nb3 {
[%eval 32706,0]}) 10... Ke4 11. Be5 $5 {#34} (11. Ne5 {#33}) 11... Kf5 12. Bc3
$6 {#35} (12. Nd7 {#33}) 12... Ke6 13. Bd4 $5 {#35} (13. Be5 {#34}) 13... Ke7
14. Be5 Ke6 15. Bc7 Kf5 16. Nd2 Ke6 17. Ne4 Kf5 18. Nc5 Kg4 $2 {#23} (18... Kf6
{#29}) 19. Nc4 Kf3 20. Be5 Kg4 21. Nd6 Kf3 $2 {#16} (21... Kh4 {#20}) 22. Bd4
$2 {#21} (22. Nd3 {#15} Ke3 23. Nb4 Kf3 24. Nd5 Kg4 25. Bf4 Kh5 26. Ne7 Kh4 27.
Bd2 Kg4 28. Nc6 Kh5 29. Ne5 Kh4 30. Ne4 Kh5 31. Nf6+ Kh4 32. Nf3+ Kh3 33. Ng5+
Kh4 34. Ne6 Kh3 35. Bc1 Kh4 36. Bg5+ Kh3 37. Nf4#) 22... Kg4 23. Ne6 (23. Bc3
Kf4 24. Nc8 Kg4 25. Ne7 Kf4 26. Bb2 Ke3 27. Nd5+ Kf3 28. Bc1 Kg4 29. Ne7 Kf3
30. Bd2 Kg4 31. Nb7 Kh4 32. Nd6 Kg4 33. Nc6 Kh3 34. Ne5 Kh4 35. Bc1 Kh3 36. Ne8
Kh4 37. Nf6 Kh3 38. Nc6 Kh4 39. Nd8 Kh3 40. Ne6 Kh4 41. Bg5+ Kh3 42. Nf4#)
23... Kh5 24. Bf6 $5 {#20} (24. Bc3 {#19}) 24... Kg6 25. Be7 $6 {#21} (25. Bc3
{#19}) 25... Kh5 26. Nf4+ $5 {#21} (26. Bf6 {#20}) 26... Kg4 27. Ng6 Kh5 28.
Ne5 Kh6 29. Nf5+ Kh5 30. Ng7+ Kh6 31. Bf6 Kh7 32. Nf5 Kg8 33. Bg7 Kh7 34. Bh6
Kg8 35. Ne7+ Kh8 36. Ng4 Kh7 37. Bf8 Kh8 38. Ne3 Kh7 39. N3f5 Kh8 40. Bg7+ Kh7
41. Bh6 Kh8 42. Bf8 Kh7 43. Ne3 Kh8 44. Ng4 Kh7 45. Nf6+ Kh8 46. Ng6# 1-0
[/pgn]

All DTM of text moves and alternative moves are only shown at quoting.
Don't know why some are and some aren't to be seen in submitted posting.
Maybe because I merged two .pgns from different GUIs regards
Peter.
Paloma
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:07 pm
Full name: Herbert L

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by Paloma »

[10. Nb3]

10.Nb3 #31 Kf6 11.Nc5 Kf7 12.Nd5 Kg7 13.Be5+ usw.
Michel
Posts: 2272
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:50 am

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by Michel »

peter wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:26 am
peter wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:49 pm Of course DTM from starting position still is 46
Yet now made a complete .pgn with comparison of the author's solution and freezer's database of the starting position from first to 35th move. At any alternative move with different DTM commented:
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.03.08"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Seoane, J."]
[Black "Study, 1922."]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/8/2k5/3N4/8/4N1p1/4Kprp/B5bn w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "91"]

1. Kf1 Kd6 $5 {[%eval 32680,0]} (1... Kc5 {[%eval 32678,0]} 2. Be5 Kb5 3. Nf5
Kc5 4. Nde7 Kb6 5. Bd6 Ka6 6. Ng7 Kb6 7. Ne6 Ka6 8. Nd8 Kb6 9. Nc8+ Kb5 10. Ba3
Kc4 11. Na7 Kb3 12. Be7 Kc3 13. Ne6 Kd3 14. Nc7 Kd4 15. Nab5+ Kc4 16. Bd6 Kb3
17. Bc5 Ka4 18. Nd6 Ka5 19. Bd4 Kb4 20. Be3 Ka5 21. Bc5 Ka4 22. Na6 Ka5 23. Nb8
Ka4 24. Nc6 Kb3 25. Bb4 Kc2 26. Nd4+ Kd3 27. Ne6 Ke3 28. Bc3 Kd3 29. Bd4 Kd2
30. Nc5 Kc2 31. Nc4 Kc1 32. Ne3 Kd2 33. Nd5 Kc2 34. Bc3 Kc1 35. Nb4 Kb1 36.
Nca6 Kc1 37. Nc7 Kb1 38. Nb5 Kc1 39. Na3 Kd1 40. Nc6 Kc1 41. Na5 Kd1 42. Bb4
Kc1 43. N5c4 Kd1 44. Bc5 Kc1 45. Be3+ Kd1 46. Nb2# {freezer}) 2. Bd4 Kc6 3. Nc3
$5 {[%eval 32680,0]} (3. Nb4+ {[%eval 32682,0]} Kd6 4. Nc4+ Kc7 5. Na5 Kd6 6.
Na6 Ke6 7. Bc5 Kd5 8. Ba3 Ke6 9. Nb8 Kf6 10. Nb7 Ke6 11. Nc5+ Kd6 12. Nca6+ Kd5
13. Nc7+ Kd4 14. Nd7 Kd3 15. Bc5 Kc4 16. Ba7 Kb4 17. Ne5 Ka4 18. Bb6 Kb4 19.
Be3 Ka5 20. Nc6+ Ka4 21. Bd2 Kb3 22. Ne5 Kc2 23. Bb4 Kb3 24. Ba5 Ka3 25. Bc3
Ka2 26. Bd2 Kb2 27. Nb5 Kc2 28. Ba5 Kb2 29. Nd4 Ka2 30. Nd3 Ka1 31. Bc3+ Ka2
32. Bb2 Kb1 33. Bc1 Ka2 34. Nb4+ Ka1 35. Ba3 Kb1 36. Ndc6 Ka1 37. Ne5 Kb1 38.
Ned3 Ka1 39. Bb2+ Kb1 40. Bc1 Ka1 41. Ba3 Kb1 42. Nc5 Ka1 43. Na4 Kb1 44. Nc3+
Ka1 45. Nc2#) 3... Kd6 $5 {[%eval 32684,0]} (3... Kc7 {[%eval 32682,0]}) 4.
Nc4+ Ke6 $2 {[%eval 32694,0]} (4... Kc6 {[%eval 32686,0]}) 5. Be5 Kd7 6. Na5
Ke6 $5 {[%eval 32700,0]} (6... Ke7 {[%eval 32698,0]}) 7. Bb8 Kd7 8. Nd5 $6 {
[%eval 32698,0]} (8. Na4 {[%eval 32702,0]}) 8... Ke6 $6 {[%eval 32704,0]} (8...
Kc8 {[%eval 32700,0]}) 9. Nb6 Kf5 10. Nac4 $2 {[%eval 32700,0]} (10. Nb3 {
[%eval 32706,0]}) 10... Ke4 11. Be5 $5 {#34} (11. Ne5 {#33}) 11... Kf5 12. Bc3
$6 {#35} (12. Nd7 {#33}) 12... Ke6 13. Bd4 $5 {#35} (13. Be5 {#34}) 13... Ke7
14. Be5 Ke6 15. Bc7 Kf5 16. Nd2 Ke6 17. Ne4 Kf5 18. Nc5 Kg4 $2 {#23} (18... Kf6
{#29}) 19. Nc4 Kf3 20. Be5 Kg4 21. Nd6 Kf3 $2 {#16} (21... Kh4 {#20}) 22. Bd4
$2 {#21} (22. Nd3 {#15} Ke3 23. Nb4 Kf3 24. Nd5 Kg4 25. Bf4 Kh5 26. Ne7 Kh4 27.
Bd2 Kg4 28. Nc6 Kh5 29. Ne5 Kh4 30. Ne4 Kh5 31. Nf6+ Kh4 32. Nf3+ Kh3 33. Ng5+
Kh4 34. Ne6 Kh3 35. Bc1 Kh4 36. Bg5+ Kh3 37. Nf4#) 22... Kg4 23. Ne6 (23. Bc3
Kf4 24. Nc8 Kg4 25. Ne7 Kf4 26. Bb2 Ke3 27. Nd5+ Kf3 28. Bc1 Kg4 29. Ne7 Kf3
30. Bd2 Kg4 31. Nb7 Kh4 32. Nd6 Kg4 33. Nc6 Kh3 34. Ne5 Kh4 35. Bc1 Kh3 36. Ne8
Kh4 37. Nf6 Kh3 38. Nc6 Kh4 39. Nd8 Kh3 40. Ne6 Kh4 41. Bg5+ Kh3 42. Nf4#)
23... Kh5 24. Bf6 $5 {#20} (24. Bc3 {#19}) 24... Kg6 25. Be7 $6 {#21} (25. Bc3
{#19}) 25... Kh5 26. Nf4+ $5 {#21} (26. Bf6 {#20}) 26... Kg4 27. Ng6 Kh5 28.
Ne5 Kh6 29. Nf5+ Kh5 30. Ng7+ Kh6 31. Bf6 Kh7 32. Nf5 Kg8 33. Bg7 Kh7 34. Bh6
Kg8 35. Ne7+ Kh8 36. Ng4 Kh7 37. Bf8 Kh8 38. Ne3 Kh7 39. N3f5 Kh8 40. Bg7+ Kh7
41. Bh6 Kh8 42. Bf8 Kh7 43. Ne3 Kh8 44. Ng4 Kh7 45. Nf6+ Kh8 46. Ng6# 1-0
[/pgn]

All DTM of text moves and alternative moves are only shown at quoting.
Don't know why some are and some aren't to be seen in submitted posting.
Maybe because I merged two .pgns from different GUIs regards
Wow! An impressive job. The definite answer on the author's solution!
Ideas=science. Simplification=engineering.
Without ideas there is nothing to simplify.
peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Anti-Engine Puzzle

Post by peter »

Paloma wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:30 am [10. Nb3]

10.Nb3 #31 Kf6 11.Nc5 Kf7 12.Nd5 Kg7 13.Be5+ usw.
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Neue Partie"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1B6/8/1N6/5k2/8/1N4p1/5prp/5Kbn b - - 0 10"]
[PlyCount "60"]

10... Kf6 11. Nc5 Ke7 12. Nd5+ Kd8 13. Bc7+ Kc8 14. Bd6 Kd8 15. Ne7 Ke8 16. Nc6
Kf7 17. Be7 Kg6 18. Nd4 Kf7 19. Bh4 Kg7 20. Nd7 Kf7 21. Ne5+ Ke8 22. Nb5 Kf8
23. Bf6 Ke8 24. Nd6+ Kf8 25. Ng6+ Kg8 26. Bc3 Kh7 27. Ne7 Kh6 28. Ne8 Kh5 29.
Bd2 Kg4 30. Nd6 Kh4 31. Nf7 Kg4 32. Ne5+ Kh4 33. Bc1 Kh3 34. Ng8 Kh4 35. Nf6
Kh3 36. Nc6 Kh4 37. Nd8 Kh3 38. Ne6 Kh4 39. Bg5+ Kh3 40. Nf4# [/pgn]

Tthat's another one of the best lines after 10.Nb3
The moves up to 13th of yours are equal to the ones in .pgn above.

At 11.Nc5 11.Nd4 is equal
at 11...Ke7 11...Kf7 is equal
...
Biggest shortcut in Seoane's line is 18...Ng4 (?) #23, 18...Kf6 would have been #29

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Neue Partie"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2B5/1N3k2/2N5/8/6p1/5prp/5Kbn w - - 0 19"]
[PlyCount "57"]

19. Nc8 Kf5 20. Na7 Kg5 21. Nc6 Kg6 22. Bd8 Kf5 23. Be7 Kf4 24. Bf6 Kf5 25. Bc3
Kg6 26. Nd8 Kh6 27. Ne4 Kg6 28. Nd6 Kh6 29. Ne6 Kg6 30. Nf8+ Kg5 31. Bd4 Kf4
32. Ne6+ Kf3 33. Bc5 Kg4 34. Be3 Kf3 35. Bd2 Kg4 36. Nf8 Kh5 37. Bc1 Kh4 38.
Nd7 Kg4 39. Ne5+ Kh4 40. Bd2 Kh3 41. Ne8 Kh4 42. Nf6 Kh3 43. Nc6 Kh4 44. Nd8
Kh3 45. Ne6 Kh4 46. Bg5+ Kh3 47. Nf4#[/pgn]
Peter.