lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:34 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:56 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 7:46 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:50 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:35 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:50 am
Very soon either Stockfish or Komodo will be able to give a Knight odds in TC of 2'+1" to the top 3 GM.s, but we are really witnessing the maximum odds that any engine would be able to give to the 3 top GMs, since none of us will be able to see an engine giving a Rook Odds with a TC of 2'+1"
The real challenge here is for an engine to give knight odds in Rapid (15' + 10") to GMs, at least with Armageddon rule that White (the odds-giver) wins draws. I think this is already possible with low-rated GMs (low 2400s). So the goal can be to gradually increase the rating of the GM to whom an engine can win say a five game Armageddon knight odds match. People expect blunders in blitz, but 15' + 10" is now the most popular time control for Elite events, especially online, so this is supposed to be a serious time limit where strong players should not make too many simple blunders. Whether an engine will ever be able to beat the world's best Rapid player this way is unknown, we are far from that point now.
Deep Blue with its capability of evaluating 200 million positions per second, was the first and fastest computer to face a Chess Champion (1997).
So we have commercial computer that are at least 24 times faster than Deep Blue, and it is still hard for the latest Engine to give a Knight Odds at TC 15'+10" to the top three players.
Ryzen 5000 CPU Bench 4.801.341.606 128 cpu's x32 threads Cluster System 4096threads Stockfish pop vondele
Knight odds is roughly a thousand elo handicap when the odds-receiver is around GM level, as best I can measure it. I believe that today's top three engines, running on a system like that (with good GPUs for engines that need them) could beat Deep Blue in a standard chess match giving something like 1000 to 1 time odds (like 8 hours to half a minute for the game) or even more, but this is still not a thousand elo with equal time. I think that Komodo Dragon or recent Lc0 could indeed give Deep Blue knight odds at some reasonably quick time control (maybe Rapid), but is far from being able to give Kasparov knight odds in Rapid. My tests between Dragon and "Benjamin" have convinced me that more speed or cores isn't the solution; I get similar results in these knight odds matches whether Dragon uses 1,4, or 10 threads. I think that's because even on one thread, Dragon searches about ten plies deeper than Benjamin, and looking deeper just makes Dragon fear lines that Benjamin would never even find. The key is to find some ways, whether by search or eval, to anticipate what a weaker opponent might overlook.
Took up the challenge, here’s a knight odds iPhone quickie while breakfast coffee. Boring but relatively solid (me) although my intended knight manoeuvre to c4 ended with SF pressure and some difficulties with the Bishop. Trading down solved the problem.
No real attempt at time control, SF was moving within a few seconds, me likewise.
[pgn] [Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "14 May 2021"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish"]
[Black "Me"]
[Result "0-1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq -"]
1... Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bg5 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bd3 O-O 6. c3 c5 7. b4 cxb4 8. cxb4
a6 9. O-O Nc6 10. a3 b5 11. Rc1 Bb7 12. e4 e5 13. d5 Nd4 14. Nxd4 exd4 15. f3
Qd7 16. Rf2 Rfc8 17. Ra2 Rxc1 18. Qxc1 Rc8 19. Qf1 Ne8 20. Ra1 Nc7 21. g4 Na8
22. a4 bxa4 23. b5 axb5 24. Bxb5 Qc7 25. Rxa4 Nb6 26. Ra7 Nd7 27. Bxd7 Qxd7 28.
Qb1 Rc7 29. Bd2 Qc8 30. h3 h6 31. Qd3 Qb8 32. Ra2 g5 33. Kf2 Bc8 34. Be1 Bd7
35. Qd1 Ra7 36. Rxa7 Qxa7 37. Kg2 Bb5 38. Qd2 Qa4 39. Qf2 Qc4 40. Ba5 Be5 41.
Bd2 Qc2 42. Bb4 Qxf2+ 43. Kxf2 Bf4 44. Ke1 Kg7 45. Ba3 Kf6 46. Bb4 Ke5 47. Kf2
Be3+ 48. Kg3 d3 49. Bc3+ Bd4 50. Bd2 Bb2 51. Kf2 Kd4 52. Be3+ Kc3 53. f4 gxf4
54. Bxf4 d2 55. Bxd2+ Kxd2 56. h4 f6 57. Kg3 Ke3 58. g5 fxg5 59. hxg5 hxg5 60.
Kg4 Bf6 61. e5 dxe5 62. Kf5 g4 63. Kxf6 g3 64. d6 g2 65. d7 Bxd7 66. Ke7 Bh3
67. Kd6 g1=Q 68. Kd5 Qa1 69. Kc5 Qd4+ 70. Kc6 Bg2+ 71. Kc7 Qd5 72. Kb6 Qc6+ 73.
Ka5 Kd4 74. Kb4 Qc5+ 75. Kb3 Qc3+ 76. Ka2 Bd5+ 77. Kb1 Qd2 78. Ka1 Qa2#
0-1
[/pgn]
According to Mr. Larry Kaufman "Knight odds is roughly a thousand elo handicap when the odds-receiver is around GM level, as best I can measure it." Therefore, if Stockfish is rated around 3300 on the Iphone on standard chess with the Knight Odds it would be around 2300. That means that you are a strong 2300 at least, if NOT we would have to figure how much to subtract to the strongest engine when giving Knight Odds.
First, does anyone know whether this Stockfish on the cellphone is Stockfish with NNUE or a version without NNUE (I'm guessing without)? NNUE does help somewhat for knight odds, though even with it Stockfish is not a strong opponent because Contempt wasn't working properly with NNUE last I heard. Without using Contempt Stockfish or Dragon will just allow too many exchanges at knight odds. My estimate of 1000 elo assumed that both players understood the importance of simplifying when ahead and avoiding that when behind.
Unfortunately the App seems to be not updated, so is certainly not NNUE version.
Actually, I thought SF, even if four years old, played quite well. Btw, my rating for these sorts of games is highly variable, depending. About 50 years when I took chess way too seriously, I got my BCF rating up to 221 and then stopped playing, neither in weekend tournaments nor in the league. That’s supposed to be about FIDE 2400. 50 years on, opening knowledge more or less gone, desire and/or ability to think in style required (Kotov type thinking) has more or less disappeared, but I think the positional knowledge stays. So, that means, gimme relatively quiet manoeuvre positions and I’ll play those well. Tactics and/or much look-ahead, eek, forget it. Seeing weird ideas that might work, good at those. If I could keep SF etc in the kind of positions I like, then, dunno, nowadays, in actual OTB, not that I ever do, maybe 2100 or more, if it gets a bit tactical or I get squeezed, then I’ll probably lose. 1900 sometimes, 2400 on a good day, in the right sort of game positions and favourable moon phase.
Anyway, SF in that one game, actually got me in a bit of trouble. Obviously my plan was Nf6-c4 via c7, a8 and b6, which, if allowed was end of Stockfish. The opening of the q-side, followed by all my pieces treading on each other’s toes was good SF play. In the end, disentanglement was possible and I got away with it. Quite possibly, playing casually against SF-NNUE, I won’t. If knight odds are 1000 Elo, with SF at 3400(?), that’s going to require a 2400 player just to break even, so I doubt that would be me. Will give it another go if find an iPhone NNUE version.
