My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

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Chessqueen
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My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:06 pm

Long time ago I thought that Carlsen could give a Roof Odds to a 2000 rated player, but after testing myself against Stockfish 13. I am convinced that Carlsen can NOT give a Rook Odds to a 2000 rated player neither a Knight Odds to a 2300 player. I know that back in the time of Morphy he used to give Odds to lower rated players and beat them, but if Carlsen ever accept to give Rook Odds to a 2000 rated player I will put my money on the lower rated player.

Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

lkaufman
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by lkaufman » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm

It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.
Komodo rules!

Uri Blass
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:49 pm

I think that it is dependent on the player.

I believe that It is possible to give rook odd and win even against 2300 player in case that the 2300 player is not a human but an engine unless programmers start to improve chess engines to make it impossible.

I showed earlier a game when stupid fruit2.2.1 lost against stockfish inspite getting rook odds and I am sure fruit is at GM level.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77325

Chessqueen
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:08 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:49 pm
I think that it is dependent on the player.

I believe that It is possible to give rook odd and win even against 2300 player in case that the 2300 player is not a human but an engine unless programmers start to improve chess engines to make it impossible.

I showed earlier a game when stupid fruit2.2.1 lost against stockfish inspite getting rook odds and I am sure fruit is at GM level.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77325
I suppose that Fruit 2.2.1 is NOT programmed to trade in every opportunity it has when it is ahead, since the more pieces you trade when you are ahead the less chances the higher rated program or human has in winning or coming out of the deficit, and at the very end it required less effort to win the endgame, since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM, most of the advantage is in the middlegame via strategic, tactics and pawn movement or placement :roll:
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

Chessqueen
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:40 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm
It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.
https://lichess.org/coach/imandrastoth

IM Andras Toth has some interesting opening ideas worth studying it, and I will invest some times learning it. It seems that he likes to lock the position, in some of these openings, but if he has to win in Armageddon, he will have to trade pieces with Komodo Dragon2 MCTS :roll:
https://www.chessable.com/discussion/th ... ayer/9135/
A N D ---- T H E S E---- G A M E S
https://www.chess.com/member/andras-toth
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

Spliffjiffer
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:03 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:08 pm
since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM
tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VfGG8o5oI
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Chessqueen
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Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:41 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:03 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:08 pm
since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM
tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VfGG8o5oI
It all depends how you were trained since for the first 4 months I was intensely trained on the endgame, then my trainer started to trained me on tactics and told me to purchase different tactical books, like Chess Tactisc from scratch by Martin Weteschnik just to mention one of them School of Future Champions by Dvoretsky and Yusupov and Attack and defense by Jacob Aagaard. But not everybody goes that route, some people study tactics, strategy and pawn structure before they learn the endgame well. :roll:
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Spliffjiffer » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:21 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:03 pm

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VfGG8o5oI
my bad: my comment "Carlsen WOULD!" is dubious...just entered the exact moveorder and noticed that Liem could have called the arbiter and could have reclaimed a draw by 50-move-rule...
1st: "analyse" and 2nd: comment after that....will i ever learn this :-(
anyway, the position is objectively lost after this:
[d]8/1p2kp2/1pb1p1p1/2r1P2p/5P1P/P1RBK1P1/1P6/8 w - - 0 1
1.Rb3?! b5?? 2.Rc3!+-

sry for that!
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Chessqueen
Posts: 2217
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:37 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:21 pm
Spliffjiffer wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:03 pm

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VfGG8o5oI
my bad: my comment "Carlsen WOULD!" is dubious...just entered the exact moveorder and noticed that Liem could have called the arbiter and could have reclaimed a draw by 50-move-rule...
1st: "analyse" and 2nd: comment after that....will i ever learn this :-(
anyway, the position is objectively lost after this:
[d]8/1p2kp2/1pb1p1p1/2r1P2p/5P1P/P1RBK1P1/1P6/8 w - - 0 1
1.Rb3?! b5?? 2.Rc3!+-

sorry for that!
Top GM Not always play perfect endings ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrHVIuf4RE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cv10qiYeGw
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

Chessqueen
Posts: 2217
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: George Pichard

Re: My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

Post by Chessqueen » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:30 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm
It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.

Hopefully Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS perform better then Komodo MCTS back in April of 2020 Practice Games Vs IM Andras Toth ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDmyrxWASOU
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

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