Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

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Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am

Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 am

Game Analysis by Dragon 2 posted here: https://share.chessbase.com/SharedGames ... pIGo3GWa5M
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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:07 am

I see no information about the time control
LTC tell me nothing and I do not know if it is 90+30 or different time control.

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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:21 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:07 am
I see no information about the time control
LTC tell me nothing and I do not know if it is 90+30 or different time control.
TC 40 in 2 hours, 20 in 1Hour, Rest 15+30 Rest.

If you clicked on the link you would have seen more detail (TCEC formatted output). Anyway I would have thought you would understand what this meant:

Image
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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 pm

AdminX wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am
Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





This isn't too surprising, since Komodo Dragon beat Hikaru Nakamura 1.5 to 0.5 from this handicap position at 15' + 10" Rapid, and I would estimate that Nakamura is roughly equal in strength with "Benjamin 1.0" in Rapid. The longer time control does favor Benjamin, but humans are better at winning with handicaps since they know to avoid complications. Also, Komodo Dragon 2 on one thread scores about 25% giving knight odds to Benjamin 1.0 in Rapid. Knight odds is MUCH more than this two pawn handicap; the rule of thumb is that a knight is worth four pawns in the opening.
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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:58 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 pm
AdminX wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am
Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





This isn't too surprising, since Komodo Dragon beat Hikaru Nakamura 1.5 to 0.5 from this handicap position at 15' + 10" Rapid, and I would estimate that Nakamura is roughly equal in strength with "Benjamin 1.0" in Rapid. The longer time control does favor Benjamin, but humans are better at winning with handicaps since they know to avoid complications. Also, Komodo Dragon 2 on one thread scores about 25% giving knight odds to Benjamin 1.0 in Rapid. Knight odds is MUCH more than this two pawn handicap; the rule of thumb is that a knight is worth four pawns in the opening.

Lets assume that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS with one pawn Odds at standard time control of game in 90 minutes drop about 550 Elo if GM Nakamura or Carlsen ever play against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at time control of at least 90 minutes per game. The question is which pawn Odds can Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS give GM Nakamura or any top 10 GM to get at least a Draw. I do NOT believe that Komodo Dragon2 at TC of at least 90 Minutes per game can give the f2 pawn.
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by lkaufman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 pm

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:58 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 pm
AdminX wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am
Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





This isn't too surprising, since Komodo Dragon beat Hikaru Nakamura 1.5 to 0.5 from this handicap position at 15' + 10" Rapid, and I would estimate that Nakamura is roughly equal in strength with "Benjamin 1.0" in Rapid. The longer time control does favor Benjamin, but humans are better at winning with handicaps since they know to avoid complications. Also, Komodo Dragon 2 on one thread scores about 25% giving knight odds to Benjamin 1.0 in Rapid. Knight odds is MUCH more than this two pawn handicap; the rule of thumb is that a knight is worth four pawns in the opening.

Lets assume that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS with one pawn Odds at standard time control of game in 90 minutes drop about 550 Elo if GM Nakamura or Carlsen ever play against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at time control of at least 90 minutes per game. The question is which pawn Odds can Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS give GM Nakamura or any top 10 GM to get at least a Draw. I do NOT believe that Komodo Dragon2 at TC of at least 90 Minutes per game can give the f2 pawn.
I think you are way overestimating the single pawn handicap. If knight odds (roughly 4 pawns in the opening) is a thousand elo, one pawn is about 250 elo. OK, f pawn is worth a bit more than average, but playing first compensates, so f2 odds should be about 250 elo. No human has any meaningful chance to beat Dragon 2 (or SF 13 or Leela) with just f2 odds, at any single-session time limit, although they would have decent drawing chances. Now f7 is a much larger handicap (more than a move difference due to immediate problems after 1.e4), maybe about 400 elo, but even with f7 the top humans would probably lose more than win, with a lot of draws.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:53 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:58 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 pm
AdminX wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am
Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





This isn't too surprising, since Komodo Dragon beat Hikaru Nakamura 1.5 to 0.5 from this handicap position at 15' + 10" Rapid, and I would estimate that Nakamura is roughly equal in strength with "Benjamin 1.0" in Rapid. The longer time control does favor Benjamin, but humans are better at winning with handicaps since they know to avoid complications. Also, Komodo Dragon 2 on one thread scores about 25% giving knight odds to Benjamin 1.0 in Rapid. Knight odds is MUCH more than this two pawn handicap; the rule of thumb is that a knight is worth four pawns in the opening.

Lets assume that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS with one pawn Odds at standard time control of game in 90 minutes drop about 550 Elo if GM Nakamura or Carlsen ever play against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at time control of at least 90 minutes per game. The question is which pawn Odds can Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS give GM Nakamura or any top 10 GM to get at least a Draw. I do NOT believe that Komodo Dragon2 at TC of at least 90 Minutes per game can give the f2 pawn.
I think you are way overestimating the single pawn handicap. If knight odds (roughly 4 pawns in the opening) is a thousand elo, one pawn is about 250 elo. OK, f pawn is worth a bit more than average, but playing first compensates, so f2 odds should be about 250 elo. No human has any meaningful chance to beat Dragon 2 (or SF 13 or Leela) with just f2 odds, at any single-session time limit, although they would have decent drawing chances. Now f7 is a much larger handicap (more than a move difference due to immediate problems after 1.e4), maybe about 400 elo, but even with f7 the top humans would probably lose more than win, with a lot of draws.
You are correct to assume that Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS can give any top player like Carlsen the f7 pawn with the time control of 90 minutes, I know that one game is barely nothing but against stockfish 13 NNUE, Shredder 8 which is to be compared with Carlsen simply could not win.

Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

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Re: Handicap c2 + f2 odds Leela-Benjamin LTC

Post by Chessqueen » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:21 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:53 am
lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 pm
Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:58 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 pm
AdminX wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:29 am
Leela managed to equalize the game by move 20. It used this weights file: LS15-20x256SE-jj-9-75000000.pb.gz and the version 0.28.0 binary.





This isn't too surprising, since Komodo Dragon beat Hikaru Nakamura 1.5 to 0.5 from this handicap position at 15' + 10" Rapid, and I would estimate that Nakamura is roughly equal in strength with "Benjamin 1.0" in Rapid. The longer time control does favor Benjamin, but humans are better at winning with handicaps since they know to avoid complications. Also, Komodo Dragon 2 on one thread scores about 25% giving knight odds to Benjamin 1.0 in Rapid. Knight odds is MUCH more than this two pawn handicap; the rule of thumb is that a knight is worth four pawns in the opening.

Lets assume that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS with one pawn Odds at standard time control of game in 90 minutes drop about 550 Elo if GM Nakamura or Carlsen ever play against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at time control of at least 90 minutes per game. The question is which pawn Odds can Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS give GM Nakamura or any top 10 GM to get at least a Draw. I do NOT believe that Komodo Dragon2 at TC of at least 90 Minutes per game can give the f2 pawn.
I think you are way overestimating the single pawn handicap. If knight odds (roughly 4 pawns in the opening) is a thousand elo, one pawn is about 250 elo. OK, f pawn is worth a bit more than average, but playing first compensates, so f2 odds should be about 250 elo. No human has any meaningful chance to beat Dragon 2 (or SF 13 or Leela) with just f2 odds, at any single-session time limit, although they would have decent drawing chances. Now f7 is a much larger handicap (more than a move difference due to immediate problems after 1.e4), maybe about 400 elo, but even with f7 the top humans would probably lose more than win, with a lot of draws.
You are correct to assume that Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS can give any top player like Carlsen the f7 pawn with the time control of 90 minutes, I know that one game is barely nothing but against stockfish 13 NNUE, Shredder 8 which is to be compared with Carlsen simply could not win. Shredder8 on my intel i7 3.40 GHz might be better than carlsen is today http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=59497

Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

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