Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

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lkaufman
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Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by lkaufman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:09 am

On June 19 and 20 on chess.com, IM Andras Toth (FIDE 2377, born 1981) will play a six game match with Komodo Dragon giving him knight odds in the now standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", on chess.com. Since he is in Australia and I'm in the U.S., scheduling was a bit difficult, but we settled on two roughly two hour sessions starting each day at 9 a.m. Eastern daylight time, which should be ideal for Europe. Komodo will be set to take only about half or less of the allotted time, so 60 move games shouldn't exceed forty minutes. Komodo will alternate between removing the b1 and g1 knights, playing White as is standard for knight odds. Armageddon scoring will be used to determine match victory, meaning that draws count as wins for Dragon, who will normally be happy to draw down a piece even with a large Contempt factor. There is prize money for the match plus money for wins and a little for draws, so Toth will always have an incentive to complete games as best he can even if they won't affect the match result. In case of a 3-3 tie score, a final game (still with Armageddon rule) will break the tie. We'll use the latest dev. version of Dragon, probably in MCTS mode, with a high Contempt score, running on my 32 core Threadripper, with a small opening book to insure variety and avoid really hopeless openings. Toth is a chess.com streamer, so he will provide commentary on the games (during, after, or both).
Past experience at this or similar time controls vs. humans at knight odds has generally been favorable for Komodo against players below 2300 FIDE, but Komodo did lose by 5 to 1 to the 2500 rated GM David Smerdon a year ago, although that was pre-Dragon. Recently Komodo Dragon 2 scored about evenly with these knight odds Armageddon conditions against GM Alex Lenderman in games with time controls averaging about 6' + 1" (I'm excluding 3' + 1" and faster games where Dragon mostly won and 8' or 9' + 1" where it mostly lost). Lenderman is about 250 elo above Toth, but the time control for Toth is about 3.5 times longer, which obviously greatly favors the player with the winning position (Black). It's not obvious whether a player with 250 less elo but 3.5 times as much thinking time will play better or worse, so I expect a close match. If we do win this match we can challenge a GM next, but that's a big "if". So, who (or what) will win this match?
Komodo rules!

Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:09 am
On June 19 and 20 on chess.com, IM Andras Toth (FIDE 2377, born 1981) will play a six game match with Komodo Dragon giving him knight odds in the now standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", on chess.com. Since he is in Australia and I'm in the U.S., scheduling was a bit difficult, but we settled on two roughly two hour sessions starting each day at 9 a.m. Eastern daylight time, which should be ideal for Europe. Komodo will be set to take only about half or less of the allotted time, so 60 move games shouldn't exceed forty minutes. Komodo will alternate between removing the b1 and g1 knights, playing White as is standard for knight odds. Armageddon scoring will be used to determine match victory, meaning that draws count as wins for Dragon, who will normally be happy to draw down a piece even with a large Contempt factor. There is prize money for the match plus money for wins and a little for draws, so Toth will always have an incentive to complete games as best he can even if they won't affect the match result. In case of a 3-3 tie score, a final game (still with Armageddon rule) will break the tie. We'll use the latest dev. version of Dragon, probably in MCTS mode, with a high Contempt score, running on my 32 core Threadripper, with a small opening book to insure variety and avoid really hopeless openings. Toth is a chess.com streamer, so he will provide commentary on the games (during, after, or both).
Past experience at this or similar time controls vs. humans at knight odds has generally been favorable for Komodo against players below 2300 FIDE, but Komodo did lose by 5 to 1 to the 2500 rated GM David Smerdon a year ago, although that was pre-Dragon. Recently Komodo Dragon 2 scored about evenly with these knight odds Armageddon conditions against GM Alex Lenderman in games with time controls averaging about 6' + 1" (I'm excluding 3' + 1" and faster games where Dragon mostly won and 8' or 9' + 1" where it mostly lost). Lenderman is about 250 elo above Toth, but the time control for Toth is about 3.5 times longer, which obviously greatly favors the player with the winning position (Black). It's not obvious whether a player with 250 less elo but 3.5 times as much thinking time will play better or worse, so I expect a close match. If we do win this match we can challenge a GM next, but that's a big "if". So, who (or what) will win this match?
It would be interesting and considered a promotion for Komodo Dragon2 if you can accept predictions from us such as I predict a 3.5 to 2.5 win for IM Andras and whoever predict t it correct to receive Komodo Dragon2 for free, and for those that did NOT predicted the outcome correct to get Komodo Dragon 2 for 1/3 of the price.
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

herO
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by herO » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:09 am

Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am
It would be interesting and considered a promotion for Komodo Dragon2 if you can accept predictions from us such as I predict a 3.5 to 2.5 win for IM Andras and whoever predict t it correct to receive Komodo Dragon2 for free, and for those that did NOT predicted the outcome correct to get Komodo Dragon 2 for 1/3 of the price.
I do not agree with your proposal. As a paying customer, I don't want anyone to receive a Komodo engine for free! I see no reason why people who write an estimate on the forum should get a Komodo engine for 1/3 of the price (66% discount)! A 20% discount is given to PAYING customers who have purchased a previous version of the Komodo engine. I have long opposed Komodo from putting their engine for free on their website. Now Komodo 12 is offered for free, which is not right. It was far better if only Komodo 10 was available for free.

Komodo offers an over-up-to-date version of the Komodo engine for free, which is very unfair to paying customers. I buy an engine and then a troll who doesn't want to pay for professional work downloads the engine for free. Absolutely unacceptable! Your proposal is a mockery of the entire Komodo team. Your opinion clearly shows you absolutely don't appreciate the hard work of the Komodo team and you ideally want everything for free. Nothing in the world is free. Deal with it.

Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:22 pm

herO wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:09 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am
It would be interesting and considered a promotion for Komodo Dragon2 if you can accept predictions from us such as I predict a 3.5 to 2.5 win for IM Andras and whoever predict t it correct to receive Komodo Dragon2 for free, and for those that did NOT predicted the outcome correct to get Komodo Dragon 2 for 1/3 of the price.
I do not agree with your proposal. As a paying customer, I don't want anyone to receive a Komodo engine for free! I see no reason why people who write an estimate on the forum should get a Komodo engine for 1/3 of the price (66% discount)! A 20% discount is given to PAYING customers who have purchased a previous version of the Komodo engine. I have long opposed Komodo from putting their engine for free on their website. Now Komodo 12 is offered for free, which is not right. It was far better if only Komodo 10 was available for free.

Komodo offers an over-up-to-date version of the Komodo engine for free, which is very unfair to paying customers. I buy an engine and then a troll who doesn't want to pay for professional work downloads the engine for free. Absolutely unacceptable! Your proposal is a mockery of the entire Komodo team. Your opinion clearly shows you absolutely don't appreciate the hard work of the Komodo team and you ideally want everything for free. Nothing in the world is free. Deal with it.
I purchased Komodo Dragon2 and gave it to my Uncle for his Birthday, It is not for me that I came up with the promotion idea, since the Komodo 13.3 that I have can beat me with his Eyes Closed, therefore, I do NOT need a stronger Komodo Dragon1 or 2. For the last two years I decided that I do not need a stronger engine since that one that I have and even the free stockfish 13 can beat me with a Knight Odds. :roll:
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

Uri
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Uri » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:22 pm

Chess engine authors are way too arrogant when they claim that their program is better than Kasparov or better than Magnus Carlsen because it's obviously just a marketing lie.

Kasparov is still at least 200 elo stronger than Komodo dragon 2. Even Komodo Dragon 5 still doesn't stand a chance against the very best human chess players.

abgursu
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by abgursu » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 pm

Uri wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:22 pm
Chess engine authors are way too arrogant when they claim that their program is better than Kasparov or better than Magnus Carlsen because it's obviously just a marketing lie.

Kasparov is still at least 200 elo stronger than Komodo dragon 2. Even Komodo Dragon 5 still doesn't stand a chance against the very best human chess players.
Seriously? Komodo is weaker than human? Open your eyes buddy. We're hardly considering humans and engines are equal even with those piece odds.
I normally wouldn't answer to you but you are probably sleeping since 90's. Somebody needs to wake you guys up.

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AdminX
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by AdminX » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:30 pm

Uri wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:22 pm
Chess engine authors are way too arrogant when they claim that their program is better than Kasparov or better than Magnus Carlsen because it's obviously just a marketing lie.

Kasparov is still at least 200 elo stronger than Komodo dragon 2. Even Komodo Dragon 5 still doesn't stand a chance against the very best human chess players.
I don't think GM Kasparov or GM Carlsen would agree with you. :lol: However at Knight odds you might have a point, a very questionable one. LMAO
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Rowen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Rowen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:21 pm

Uri wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:22 pm
Chess engine authors are way too arrogant when they claim that their program is better than Kasparov or better than Magnus Carlsen because it's obviously just a marketing lie.

Kasparov is still at least 200 elo stronger than Komodo dragon 2. Even Komodo Dragon 5 still doesn't stand a chance against the very best human chess players.
Well in 2003 Kramnik lost 4/2 against Deep Fritz.
In 2003 Kasparov drew 3/3 against Deep Junior and in the same year ? drew 2/2 against X3D Fritz.

Seems reasonable to Suggest that Komodo dragon 2 is significantly stronger than those old engines that Kasparov drew with, also with new hardware...

Yet a 200 elo difference would suggest that Kasparov would score about 75% against Komodo dragon. Doesnt seem likely.

Uri Blass
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:24 pm

herO wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:09 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am
It would be interesting and considered a promotion for Komodo Dragon2 if you can accept predictions from us such as I predict a 3.5 to 2.5 win for IM Andras and whoever predict t it correct to receive Komodo Dragon2 for free, and for those that did NOT predicted the outcome correct to get Komodo Dragon 2 for 1/3 of the price.
I do not agree with your proposal. As a paying customer, I don't want anyone to receive a Komodo engine for free! I see no reason why people who write an estimate on the forum should get a Komodo engine for 1/3 of the price (66% discount)! A 20% discount is given to PAYING customers who have purchased a previous version of the Komodo engine. I have long opposed Komodo from putting their engine for free on their website. Now Komodo 12 is offered for free, which is not right. It was far better if only Komodo 10 was available for free.

Komodo offers an over-up-to-date version of the Komodo engine for free, which is very unfair to paying customers. I buy an engine and then a troll who doesn't want to pay for professional work downloads the engine for free. Absolutely unacceptable! Your proposal is a mockery of the entire Komodo team. Your opinion clearly shows you absolutely don't appreciate the hard work of the Komodo team and you ideally want everything for free. Nothing in the world is free. Deal with it.
It is not correct that Nothing in the world is free.

Stockfish is free and most people who use chess engines prefer to use it and not to use komodo because stockfish is stronger.

Edit:If you think that getting strong engines for free is unfair for paying customers then I think that the first complain should be to stockfish developers and you should tell them to stop release free versions of stockfish because it is unfair for paying customers of commercial engines.

Chessqueen
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Re: Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

Post by Chessqueen » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:50 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:24 pm
herO wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:09 am
Chessqueen wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 am
It would be interesting and considered a promotion for Komodo Dragon2 if you can accept predictions from us such as I predict a 3.5 to 2.5 win for IM Andras and whoever predict t it correct to receive Komodo Dragon2 for free, and for those that did NOT predicted the outcome correct to get Komodo Dragon 2 for 1/3 of the price.
I do not agree with your proposal. As a paying customer, I don't want anyone to receive a Komodo engine for free! I see no reason why people who write an estimate on the forum should get a Komodo engine for 1/3 of the price (66% discount)! A 20% discount is given to PAYING customers who have purchased a previous version of the Komodo engine. I have long opposed Komodo from putting their engine for free on their website. Now Komodo 12 is offered for free, which is not right. It was far better if only Komodo 10 was available for free.

Komodo offers an over-up-to-date version of the Komodo engine for free, which is very unfair to paying customers. I buy an engine and then a troll who doesn't want to pay for professional work downloads the engine for free. Absolutely unacceptable! Your proposal is a mockery of the entire Komodo team. Your opinion clearly shows you absolutely don't appreciate the hard work of the Komodo team and you ideally want everything for free. Nothing in the world is free. Deal with it.
It is not correct that Nothing in the world is free.

Stockfish is free and most people who use chess engines prefer to use it and not to use komodo because stockfish is stronger.

Edit:If you think that getting strong engines for free is unfair for paying customers then I think that the first complain should be to stockfish developers and you should tell them to stop release free versions of stockfish because it is unfair for paying customers of commercial engines.
I honesly believe that the Stockfish team or developers should at least charge $30.00, for their effort to compensate for their time in developing such strong engine. The only reasonable commercial price that I see on the market for a strong engine is Ethereal 3.00 NNUE at the moment, and because it sell for a reasonable price at the long run it will make more profit than some of the engines that are sol for 75% more.
Arizona will have to learn from the Chinese to regain Greenland from desert ==>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTpaJn22w4I

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