Dragon Human Personality

[KLc]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

[lkaufman]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

[KLc]

OK, thanks for the explanations! (Maybe you can add this to the official documentation?)

[n4k3dw4ff13s]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Has this been updated or changed in anyway? Do the personalities work with NNUE now and does skill level work with MCTS now?

[n4k3dw4ff13s]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Has this been updated in anyway? Do the personalities work with NNUE now and does the MCTS work with skill level now?

[lkaufman]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Has this been updated in anyway? Do the personalities work with NNUE now and does the MCTS work with skill level now?

No, this is still current info. The personalities really can't work with NNUE since NNUE doesn't provide the information needed to favor various aspects of a personality.

[n4k3dw4ff13s]

Thanks for the update!

[Fritz 0]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Regarding this, does MCTS mode work properly at fixed depth, as a GUI option? If it does, that actually combines MCTS and skill levels.

[lkaufman]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Regarding this, does MCTS mode work properly at fixed depth, as a GUI option? If it does, that actually combines MCTS and skill levels.

No, depth is not a real figure for mcts, we just use a function of the mcts node count to display. We could define levels by this function, but even a one mcts node search would play in or near GM level, so this isn’t suitable.

[Chessqueen]

I was playing around with the Human personality of the Dragon engine (in MCTS mode). Why are the evaluations so exaggerated? For example for the Scandinavian 1. e4 d5 I get +1.6. And then when I take 2. exd5 the score drops to around 0. Is this normal? Also, how realistic is the Human personality actually?

The personalities (such as "Human") use non-standard parameter settings, in particular "Human" uses a high Contempt setting (you might say it is emulating a conceited or cocky human, not an average one!). So it thinks White is much better than his real advantage when it is White, and it thinks Black is much better off than in reality when it is Black. Note that the personalities don't use NNUE ("dragon mode") since they depend on parameters that are not used by NNUE. The personalities came before NNUE; in my personal opinion NNUE already plays more like a human than the Human mode does, because it plays by patterns somewhat like humans do. Also MCTS mode makes it even more like a human as the search does not assume that it can always predict the opponent's reply. But the Skill levels don't work with MCTS, something we can address in the future perhaps.

Regarding this, does MCTS mode work properly at fixed depth, as a GUI option? If it does, that actually combines MCTS and skill levels.

No, depth is not a real figure for mcts, we just use a function of the mcts node count to display. We could define levels by this function, but even a one mcts node search would play in or near GM level, so this isn’t suitable.

I purchased Dragon 3.2 for my nephew yesterday, and he asked me today why the Minimum Elo is NOT as low as 1000, he just started to play chess 3 months ago, but the Minimum Elo that you can set Dragon is = 1320 which is too high for him