Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:42 am

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:30 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
In the future do Not offer to play with the b1 Knight odds, instead offer to play with the Black side but at 10"+5 ( 2 games with the b8 Knight odds and 2 games with the g8 Knight odds only when playing with Black), but at 15"+10' when playing 4 games with the g1 Knight odds . Probably in 6 months you should try against another 2500 rated player from India where there are 100,000 of chess player fans, or the 12 years old youngest GM prodigy in history could be a potential target.

Note: Mr.Kaufman can you explain why Komodo Dragon 2 performs better when giving the g1 knight? The way that I look at it is that the Knight at g1 helps to protect the King after castling, but maybe the possibility of being able to castle faster might be the reason

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm

lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.

I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.

lkaufman · Post by **lkaufman** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.

Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:21 am

lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.

So we are probably looking at least 2 years before Komodo can beat a 2600 rated human, and another 4 to 5 years before it can beat a super GM like Nakamura or MVL with a g1 Knight Odds at 15'+ 10". I was also wondering if Komodo Dragon3 in 5 or 6 more months would have a chance at GM Wirig or GM Smeldon with the Black pieces like b8 or g8 Knight Odds at 10'=5''. ?

lkaufman · Post by **lkaufman** » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:35 am

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:21 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.
So we are probably looking at least 2 years before Komodo can beat a 2600 rated human, and another 4 to 5 years before it can beat a super GM like Nakamura or MVL with a g1 Knight Odds at 15'+ 10". I was also wondering if Komodo Dragon3 in 5 or 6 more months would have a chance at GM Wirig or GM Smeldon with the Black pieces like b8 or g8 Knight Odds at 10'=5''. ?

Based on the Lenderman blitz games, color makes a big difference at knight odds; knight and move odds against grandmasters is only reasonable in fast blitz games as of now. But I think you are a bit too pessimistic regarding Ng1 odds; there is still plenty to improve in Komodo Dragon, and considering that the four games with g1 knight odds and first move 1e4 gave a 2.5 to 1.5 winning score for the Dragon, and that Wirig is probably close to 2600 level in Rapid given his 2800+ blitz ratings on both Lichess and chess.com, I don't think it should take us two more years for that. Beating a top five Rapid player in a g1 odds match is indeed far off, maybe it will never happen, hard to say. I didn't think this current result would ever happen until recently.

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:56 pm

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:35 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:21 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.
So we are probably looking at least 2 years before Komodo can beat a 2600 rated human, and another 4 to 5 years before it can beat a super GM like Nakamura or MVL with a g1 Knight Odds at 15'+ 10". I was also wondering if Komodo Dragon3 in 5 or 6 more months would have a chance at GM Wirig or GM Smeldon with the Black pieces like b8 or g8 Knight Odds at 10'=5''. ?
Based on the Lenderman blitz games, color makes a big difference at knight odds; knight and move odds against grandmasters is only reasonable in fast blitz games as of now.

So what you can do for the next Knight odds challenge is to only play 4 games with Ng1 Odds at 15'+10" and 4 games with either b8 or g8 Knight odds removed whichever give Komodo a better chance of winning at 5'+ 3" against 2500 thru 2550 rated human players

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:41 am

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:56 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:35 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:21 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.
So we are probably looking at least 2 years before Komodo can beat a 2600 rated human, and another 4 to 5 years before it can beat a super GM like Nakamura or MVL with a g1 Knight Odds at 15'+ 10". I was also wondering if Komodo Dragon3 in 5 or 6 more months would have a chance at GM Wirig or GM Smeldon with the Black pieces like b8 or g8 Knight Odds at 10'=5''. ?
Based on the Lenderman blitz games, color makes a big difference at knight odds; knight and move odds against grandmasters is only reasonable in fast blitz games as of now.
So what you can do for the next Knight odds challenge is to only play 4 games with Ng1 Odds at 15'+10" and 4 games with either b8 or g8 Knight odds removed whichever give Komodo a better chance of winning at 5'+ 3" against 2500 thru 2550 rated human players

Note: It is possible to give GM Wirig or Smeldon a Knight Odds in TC 30'+10" at Chess 960 (FRC), since most Humans GM will select worse opening than Komodo at Chess 960

lkaufman · Post by **lkaufman** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:12 am

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:41 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:56 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:35 am
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:21 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:10 am
AdminX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 pm Tie Break

[pgn]
[Event "Live Chess - Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2021.07.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "PlayKomodo"]
[Black "AnthonyWirig"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[BlackElo "2802"]
[Termination "Game drawn by repetition"]

1. e4 {[%clk 0:15:10]} 1... d5 {[%clk 0:14:53.7]} 2. exd5 {[%clk 0:15:19.9]}
2... Nf6 {[%clk 0:15:02.2]} 3. Bb5+ {[%clk 0:15:29.8]} 3... Nbd7 {[%clk
0:15:08.2]} 4. Nc3 {[%clk 0:15:39.7]} 4... a6 {[%clk 0:15:10.8]} 5. Be2 {[%clk
0:15:29.2]} 5... Nb6 {[%clk 0:15:06.8]} 6. d4 {[%clk 0:15:11.1]} 6... Nbxd5
{[%clk 0:14:44]} 7. Nxd5 {[%clk 0:15:20]} 7... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:13:42.6]} 8. Bg5
{[%clk 0:14:48.9]} 8... h6 {[%clk 0:13:31.7]} 9. Bd2 {[%clk 0:14:28.7]} 9... e6
{[%clk 0:13:32.3]} 10. O-O {[%clk 0:14:05.1]} 10... Nf6 {[%clk 0:12:49.5]} 11.
Ba5 {[%clk 0:13:42.4]} 11... b6 {[%clk 0:12:35.3]} 12. Bf3 {[%clk 0:13:52.3]}
12... Rb8 {[%clk 0:12:18.7]} 13. Bc3 {[%clk 0:13:49.4]} 13... Bb7 {[%clk
0:12:17]} 14. Bxb7 {[%clk 0:13:21.9]} 14... Rxb7 {[%clk 0:12:26.9]} 15. Qe2
{[%clk 0:13:00.1]} 15... b5 {[%clk 0:12:09.7]} 16. a4 {[%clk 0:13:08]} 16... Be7
{[%clk 0:11:15.4]} 17. axb5 {[%clk 0:13:00.2]} 17... axb5 {[%clk 0:11:20.5]} 18.
d5 {[%clk 0:13:02.7]} 18... Nxd5 {[%clk 0:09:32.2]} 19. Bxg7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]}
19... Rg8 {[%clk 0:09:01.6]} 20. Bxh6 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]} 20... Bg5 {[%clk
0:09:03.2]} 21. Bxg5 {[%clk 0:12:54.3]} 21... Qxg5 {[%clk 0:09:06.5]} 22. f4
{[%clk 0:12:39.7]} 22... Qg4 {[%clk 0:08:32.9]} 23. Qe4 {[%clk 0:12:49.6]} 23...
Kd7 {[%clk 0:06:44.9]} 24. g3 {[%clk 0:12:33.6]} 24... Qf5 {[%clk 0:06:11.5]}
25. Qg2 {[%clk 0:12:18.2]} 25... Rb6 {[%clk 0:06:02]} 26. Rae1 {[%clk
0:12:28.1]} 26... f6 {[%clk 0:04:58]} 27. h3 {[%clk 0:12:18.6]} 27... Rd6 {[%clk
0:04:57.8]} 28. Rf3 {[%clk 0:12:09]} 28... Ne7 {[%clk 0:04:31.9]} 29. Kh2 {[%clk
0:11:57.2]} 29... Qd5 {[%clk 0:04:32.5]} 30. Ree3 {[%clk 0:11:37.6]} 30... Nf5
{[%clk 0:04:21.6]} 31. Rd3 {[%clk 0:11:47.5]} 31... Nd4 {[%clk 0:03:57.6]} 32.
Rf2 {[%clk 0:11:44.5]} 32... Qxg2+ {[%clk 0:03:59.5]} 33. Kxg2 {[%clk
0:11:47.4]} 33... Ra8 {[%clk 0:03:17.9]} 34. g4 {[%clk 0:11:37.1]} 34... Ra2
{[%clk 0:03:14.2]} 35. h4 {[%clk 0:11:42.5]} 35... Rxb2 {[%clk 0:02:47.1]} 36.
h5 {[%clk 0:11:52.4]} 36... Ra2 {[%clk 0:02:40.1]} 37. h6 {[%clk 0:11:47.3]}
37... Ra8 {[%clk 0:02:44.7]} 38. Rg3 {[%clk 0:11:48.4]} 38... Ke7 {[%clk
0:02:42.7]} 39. c3 {[%clk 0:11:46.2]} 39... Nc6 {[%clk 0:02:04.7]} 40. g5 {[%clk
0:11:56.1]} 40... Kf7 {[%clk 0:01:54.4]} 41. f5 {[%clk 0:12:06]} 41... exf5
{[%clk 0:01:51.8]} 42. g6+ {[%clk 0:11:59.6]} 42... Kg8 {[%clk 0:01:57.3]} 43.
Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:07]} 43... Ne5 {[%clk 0:01:55.9]} 44. Rf1 {[%clk 0:12:15.5]}
44... Rad8 {[%clk 0:01:42.9]} 45. Kh3 {[%clk 0:12:06.6]} 45... f5 {[%clk
0:00:50.4]} 46. Rxf5 {[%clk 0:12:03.8]} 46... Nxg6 {[%clk 0:00:56.2]} 47. Kg4
{[%clk 0:12:01.7]} 47... Rf8 {[%clk 0:00:31]} 48. Rxb5 {[%clk 0:12:04.5]} 48...
Kh7 {[%clk 0:00:32.3]} 49. Rc5 {[%clk 0:12:02.2]} 49... c6 {[%clk 0:00:25.1]}
50. Rf5 {[%clk 0:12:05.2]} 50... Rxf5 {[%clk 0:00:19.8]} 51. Kxf5 {[%clk
0:12:09.9]} 51... Kxh6 {[%clk 0:00:29.3]} 52. Re3 {[%clk 0:12:14.5]} 52... Kg7
{[%clk 0:00:34.1]} 53. Re6 {[%clk 0:12:19.2]} 53... Rxe6 {[%clk 0:00:11.8]} 54.
Kxe6 {[%clk 0:12:29.1]} 54... Kf8 {[%clk 0:00:21.1]} 55. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:31.7]}
55... Ne7 {[%clk 0:00:30]} 56. Kd7 {[%clk 0:12:33.9]} 56... Kf7 {[%clk
0:00:35.8]} 57. c4 {[%clk 0:12:40.5]} 57... Kf6 {[%clk 0:00:26]} 58. Kd6 {[%clk
0:12:50.4]} 58... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:32.1]} 59. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:00.3]} 59... Kf8
{[%clk 0:00:29.4]} 60. Kd6 {[%clk 0:12:46.4]} 60... Ke8 {[%clk 0:00:35.4]} 61.
Kc7 {[%clk 0:12:56.3]} 61... Kf7 {[%clk 0:00:25.2]} 62. Kd7 {[%clk 0:13:06.2]}
1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
So we won the match by 5 to 4 with the agreed Armageddon scoring, but he won by 6 to 3 by conventional scoring (and won a prize for that). It was pretty much as I figured, that Dragon would almost always be fighting for draws, but would get enough of them to win with Armageddon scoring. Beating an active GM at Rapid at knight odds by normal scoring is still a goal for the future. The match did strongly suggest that g1 knight odds is easier to give than b1 knight odds, as I've said in the past. We were even with conventional scoring in the five g1 odds games, but lost badly (1/2 to 3 1/2) in the four b1 odds games. The reason is simple: 1.e4 is only playable with a knight on b1 to attack the queen after 1..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Other moves just don't set enough problems.
I also realized that Komodo does better when it open with 1. e4 with the g1 Knight odds, since it lost 2 games with 1.d4 with the Knight Odds, and with the b1 Knight odds the 1. f4 is not too good either.
Yes, it's all logical. In theory the g1 knight should be the more valuable one, but concrete lines trump general considerations. The opening move 1.e4 should be the best chance to get some initiative and open the game so that the calculating ability of the engine will matter, but unfortunately with b1 knight missing 1e4 d5 2exd5 Qxd5 is just good for Black, especially since a quick ...e5 may lead to a queen trade. 1.f4 works pretty well in practice (with b1 missing), but as we saw (and I knew already) From's Gambit (1.f4 e5) works quite well at knight odds. Queen's gambit doesn't work without b1 knight due to having no knight to block a check on b4. Also the ability to castle one move sooner with g1 missing is sometimes helpful. Basically, with b1 missing White is just down a piece, while with g1 missing he at least has the usual slight White initiative in return for the piece.
So we are probably looking at least 2 years before Komodo can beat a 2600 rated human, and another 4 to 5 years before it can beat a super GM like Nakamura or MVL with a g1 Knight Odds at 15'+ 10". I was also wondering if Komodo Dragon3 in 5 or 6 more months would have a chance at GM Wirig or GM Smeldon with the Black pieces like b8 or g8 Knight Odds at 10'=5''. ?
Based on the Lenderman blitz games, color makes a big difference at knight odds; knight and move odds against grandmasters is only reasonable in fast blitz games as of now.
So what you can do for the next Knight odds challenge is to only play 4 games with Ng1 Odds at 15'+10" and 4 games with either b8 or g8 Knight odds removed whichever give Komodo a better chance of winning at 5'+ 3" against 2500 thru 2550 rated human players
Note: It is possible to give GM Wirig or Smeldon a Knight Odds in TC 30'+10" at Chess 960 (FRC), since most Humans GM will select worse opening than Komodo at Chess 960

Yes, we did that a year ago with gm Lenderman at 15’ + 10”, pre- dragon. With the huge nnue boost we could indeed do so at 30’ + 10”.

Vinvin · Post by **Vinvin** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:46 pm

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:12 am Yes, we did that a year ago with gm Lenderman at 15’ + 10”, pre- dragon. With the huge nnue boost we could indeed do so at 30’ + 10”.

May be you can try to get Daniel Naroditsky.

Chessqueen · Post by **Chessqueen** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Vinvin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:46 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:12 am Yes, we did that a year ago with gm Lenderman at 15’ + 10”, pre- dragon. With the huge nnue boost we could indeed do so at 30’ + 10”.
May be you can try to get Daniel Naroditsky.

Why do you suggest him, do you have any connection or friendship with him. and found out that he would accept. I believe that younger Indian GM like Praggnanandhaa or even 17 years old GM Nihal rated 2620 in chess960 could be a better candidate and over 200,000 Indian chess fans would follow the match and probably 1% of those fans might purchase Komodo. Here is a game where GM Nihal played vs a 2699 GM Alekseenko Kirill rated in Chess 960 and beat him in a strange 960 position
Gata Kamsky could also be a candidate ==>

Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match

Re: Komodo Dragon vs GM Wirig knight odds match