Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

[Milos]

...
One could understand that Dunning-Kruger of yours, but what is hard to understand is total lack of logic.
..

Milose, help me out, what was the IQ-gap for the Dunning-Kruger?

--
Srdja

Ability at a certain task has nothing to do with IQ. Studies have shown that Dunning-Kruger has a different effect in different cultures though. Seems a culture that gratifies "Übermenschen" is somehow more susceptible to it.

[ChickenLogic]

There are few cases where it's not the judge deciding if something is allowed as evidence: torture and other extreme methods of gaining evidence can under no circumstances be used even if it saved lives. Other's aren't as easy and require a judge. This case is pretty easy: Somebody simply guessed a password and leaked the source of Houdini. SF team didn't do anything illegal - they simply found a leaked source on github so the SF team can in fact use it since they didn't do anything illegal. Things would be different if the person who got the source was the one filing a lawsuit. But even then: guessing somebody's password can be punished but only if the victim files a case. Houdart did no such thing. In theory it is also possible to be suspicious of Houdini and request the source code during discovery.

[frcha]

That is NOT what happened. It is next to impossible that

Somebody simply guessed a password

- nearly an impossible scenario that Robert would have left stolen code on insecure server .

Most likely that:

1. Houdini leaked sources are not original sources but a leaked Rev. Eng. job done similar to the vein of the Robolitto/Robodouni clone. - 85%chance.

2. 14.5 % chance that there was targeted attack on Robert's servers. The chances of this are less though compared to #1.

3. guessable pswd chance is 0.5 % - really no one with a clear mind will believe the official cucumber story.

[dkappe]

...if an illegal obtained evidence is nevertheless approved by German courts varies from case to case and depends.

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Srdja

Let’s hope noob and ChickenLogic aren’t offering cucumber legal advice.

[AndrewGrant]

That is NOT what happened. It is next to impossible that

Somebody simply guessed a password

- nearly an impossible scenario that Robert would have left stolen code on insecure server .

Most likely that:

1. Houdini leaked sources are not original sources but a leaked Rev. Eng. job done similar to the vein of the Robolitto/Robodouni clone. - 85%chance.

2. 14.5 % chance that there was targeted attack on Robert's servers. The chances of this are less though compared to #1.

3. guessable pswd chance is 0.5 % - really no one with a clear mind will believe the official cucumber story.

Why doubt a man who has not yet ever revealed himself to lie?

[ChickenLogic]

That is NOT what happened. It is next to impossible that

Somebody simply guessed a password

- nearly an impossible scenario that Robert would have left stolen code on insecure server .

Most likely that:

1. Houdini leaked sources are not original sources but a leaked Rev. Eng. job done similar to the vein of the Robolitto/Robodouni clone. - 85%chance.

2. 14.5 % chance that there was targeted attack on Robert's servers. The chances of this are less though compared to #1.

3. guessable pswd chance is 0.5 % - really no one with a clear mind will believe the official cucumber story.

You'd be surprised how lazy 'professionals' are with passwords. Just recently a German programmer in the US lost access to his 200 million $ BTC account because he forgot the password and lost his paper with the correct PW. He even admitted that he does use recycled passwords. If it happens to professionals that have to protect 200m$ it certainly will also happen to somebody who 'just' has to protect stolen code. Certainly not uncommon for people to be that lazy/stupid. In fact, it sadly is the norm that people use recycled passwords.

My point that all the SF team did was using a leaked source on github still stands. There is nothing illegal with finding the matching code on a legal website. In fact, if there's no reason to believe that the website offers illegal downloads the user is never liable for downloading something illegal on that website - at least in Germany; which is where the case was filed.

[ChickenLogic]

...if an illegal obtained evidence is nevertheless approved by German courts varies from case to case and depends.

--
Srdja

Let’s hope noob and ChickenLogic aren’t offering cucumber legal advice.

My logic is rather simple: SF team has a lawyer. That lawyer knows about the origin of Houdini's source code. SF decides to file a case and the lawyer supports it. If he had concerns that Houdini's origin can't be proven in front of court they wouldn't file a case. In fact, it doesn't even matter whether the leak can be used. There are other ways to prove it.

Also, you predicted that nobody could file a case because there is no GPL violation (at least concerning FF2) and that it would just be forgotten. You've been wrong about that too - after all there is a well renowned lawyer that does support SF's case. I wouldn't consult you for legal advice either.
My analogy about the car with the open roof and doors is rather easy to understand and can easily be looked up since it happens all the time.

[dkappe]

Also, you predicted that nobody could file a case because there is no GPL violation (at least concerning FF2) and that it would just be forgotten. You've been wrong about that too - after all there is a well renowned lawyer that does support SF's case. I wouldn't consult you for legal advice either.
My analogy about the car with the open roof and doors is rather easy to understand and can easily be looked up since it happens all the time.

I have said there was no GPL violation, aside from the initial corrected wobble, in the matter of FF2. I stand by that. I certainly wouldn’t have predicted that a case couldn’t be filed as filing a case is no great hurdle. Winning one is a different matter; this is where the misery begins. If this plays out all the way, check back in 2025.

I have no idea whether CB violated the SF project’s GPL with Houdini. I just hope that cucumber doesn’t doesn’t cry out in court, “but ChickenLogic said it wasn’t a crime!”

[RubiChess]

I am a Christian.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't follow any religion (just my personal one trying to be a good human) but I agree. I don't want to say that it is right to login into a foreign computer (which probably was badly protected). But never the less I am thankful that the license violation of Houdini was disclosed by that.

I'm surprised that stolen code would be allowed to be admissable in a court of law.

The whole lawsuit IS about stolen code or illegal usage of it. Again you only talk about the finding/re-freeing or for my sake even stealing of the code from Houdarts server. The main stealing was done by Houdart which at least for me is 100% fact following all the evidences from people who compared the official binary with the one compiled from the stolen code, analyzed logs of Houdini games at TCEC etc. etc.

Certainly looks like Houdart might have done wrong, but after the Rybka witch-hunt, all of this sort of stuff sickens me.

Rybka was before my active time so I cannot say much about it. But a witch-hunt needs an innocent victim otherwise you don't call it witch-hunt.
And Rajlich was probably more innocent than Houdart.

Any way, doesn't matter what I think. It's gone before a court, so they will decide.

Full agreement. And no personal offense. You know that I like you and all your work you do for the chess programming community. Just wanted to share my different oppinion here.

Regards, Andreas

[ChickenLogic]

Also, you predicted that nobody could file a case because there is no GPL violation (at least concerning FF2) and that it would just be forgotten. You've been wrong about that too - after all there is a well renowned lawyer that does support SF's case. I wouldn't consult you for legal advice either.
My analogy about the car with the open roof and doors is rather easy to understand and can easily be looked up since it happens all the time.

I have said there was no GPL violation, aside from the initial corrected wobble, in the matter of FF2. I stand by that. I certainly wouldn’t have predicted that a case couldn’t be filed as filing a case is no great hurdle. Winning one is a different matter; this is where the misery begins. If this plays out all the way, check back in 2025.

I have no idea whether CB violated the SF project’s GPL with Houdini. I just hope that cucumber doesn’t doesn’t cry out in court, “but ChickenLogic said it wasn’t a crime!”

Would be nice if you stopped putting things in my mouth I never said. All I said was that I think it's likely that the leaked source code will be permitted as evidence. I never said cucumber didn't commit a crime. Also, Houdart would have to file a case against cucumber because accessing somebodies server isn't a crime that gets pursued without somebody filing a case (unlike murder which will be investigated regardless of somebody filing a case). It's called 'Antragsdelikt' - look it up. I'm rather sure it's the same in Belgium (where Houdart lives to my knowledge).