Hard Puzzle for July

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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle »

Paloma wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:12 pm
Hobacle wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm
2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?
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peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:34 am
Paloma wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:12 pm
Hobacle wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm
2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?
If I may hop in again, how about that:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - -"]

1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+
6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8 Qf5+
11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8
Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8 Qf6+
20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8
Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6 26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+
29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32. Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8
Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8
38. Kf8 Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7
Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6 45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+
47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. Kh8 Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8
Kc8 52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Kd8
56. Kh8 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Ke7 58. Bb3 c4 59. a7 Kf6 60. Kf8
Qxg7+ 61. Ke8 Qe7# 0-1
[/pgn]

50 moves reached at 52 (see comment) making engine think it's drawn, which it really is of course as for no-study-rules unless I gave away more than 10 moves yet in .pgn above. Seeing it strictly bound to game- playing rules over the board (which I wouldn't as for studies) one could call it cooked too, if my "solution" is correct at all.

Sorry, Paloma, couldn't sit on my fingers and I had to show my latest idea, not to take the h1- Knight at all. Before I saw that, way forth and back with King along that detour costed me many unnecessary moves in older 2.Kxe7- lines of mine. This one's the longest I have so far yet still anyhow now.

And the line fits to this point of the thread best, having your part of the solution here already regards
Peter.
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:18 am
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - -"]

1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+
6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8 Qf5+
11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8
Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8 Qf6+
20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8
Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6 26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+
29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32. Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8
Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8
38. Kf8 Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7
Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6 45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+
47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. Kh8 Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8
Kc8 52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Kd8
56. Kh8 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Ke7 58. Bb3 c4 59. a7 Kf6 60. Kf8
Qxg7+ 61. Ke8 Qe7# 0-1
[/pgn]
44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?
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peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:36 am
peter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:18 am
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - -"]

1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+
6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8 Qf5+
11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8
Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8 Qf6+
20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8
Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6 26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+
29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32. Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8
Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8
38. Kf8 Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7
Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6 45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+
47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. Kh8 Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8
Kc8 52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Kd8
56. Kh8 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Ke7 58. Bb3 c4 59. a7 Kf6 60. Kf8
Qxg7+ 61. Ke8 Qe7# 0-1
[/pgn]
44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?
Not enough as for 50 moves, if my mating- score at Backward is correct to that point, yet there's much doubt about the distances to mate and to 50 moves anyhow with engines chosing longer DsTM for Black to avoid 50 moves. Right now I'm trying with an old Cfish version of mine having UCI parameter of raising 50 to 100 moves.
With this one at your position in question as for 44...Bb6, sorry for german abbr.:

[d]k5K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN b - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
Tiefe: 116/30 00:01:12 6086MN

.pgn above is somewhat buggy yet also anyhow, here's a later one with 2.g8Q? lines too, no garantee at all yet still anyhow, just to show the detours and shortcuts possible at the end as for substituting 50 moves boundary and mating lines, that's the reason for differences in output with mating score, Black can move a-Pawn earlier to get longer DTM, but then has 50 moves reached earlier.
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "123"]
[EventDate "2021.??.??"]

1... Qxd2 (1... Rxg7 2. Kxg7 Qxd2 3. Kg6 Bb6 (3... Qe2 4. Kh5 Qe8+ 5. Kxg4 Qg6+
6. Kh4 (6. Kf4 Bd2+ 7. Kxf3 Qf5+ 8. Ke2 Ba5 9. Bb3 Kb2 10. f4 Qh5+ 11. Kf1 Qf3+
12. Nf2 Qg2+ 13. Ke2 Kxb3 14. a7 c4 15. dxc4 Kc2 16. a8=R d3+ 17. Ke3 Bb6+ 18.
c5 Bxc5#) 6... Qh7+ (6... Bd2 7. g4) 7. Kg4 Bb6 8. Kf4 Qf7+ 9. Kg5 Qg8+ 10. Kh4
Qh8+ 11. Kg4) 4. Kf5 Qh6 5. Kxg4 Qg6+ 6. Kh4 Qh7+ 7. Kg5 Qe7+ 8. Kg4 Qe5 9. Kh4
Qh8+ 10. Kg4) (1... Re8 2. Ne4 Qb8 3. Kf7 Qd8 4. Nf6 Qe7+ 5. Kg6) 2. Kxe7 (2.
g8=Q Re5 3. Qg7 (3. Qxg4 Qh6+ 4. Kf7 Qh7+ 5. Qg7 Re7+ 6. Kxe7 Qxg7+ 7. Kd8 Qg8+
8. Ke7 Bd2 9. Kd7 Bg5 10. g4 Qd8+ 11. Ke6 Kb1 12. a7 Kc2 13. Kf5 Qf6+ 14. Ke4
Qf8 15. Be5 dxe5 16. Bh2 Bf4 17. Ng3 Qa8 18. g5 Qxa7 19. g6 Qa8 20. g7 Bxg3 21.
Bxg3 Qe8 22. d6 Qg6+ 23. Kxe5 cxd6+ 24. Kd5 Qxg7 25. Kxd6 h2 26. Bxh2 Qh6+ 27.
Be6 Qxh2+ 28. Kd7 Qh7+ 29. Kd8 Qh8+ 30. Kd7 Kxd3) (3. Qg6 Bb6 4. Bb5 Kb2 5. Bc4
Kc3 6. Bb5 Kb3 7. Bc4+ Kb2 8. Bb5 Ba7 9. Bc4 Kc2 10. Qg7 Rh5 11. Qxg4 Qh6+ 12.
Kf7 Qh8 13. Qg6 Rh7+ 14. Qxh7 Qxh7+ 15. Kf6 Qh6+ 16. Ke7 Qg7+ 17. Kd8 Qg8+ 18.
Kd7 Qg4+ 19. Kxc7 Qg7+ 20. Kxd6 Bb8+ 21. c7 Qxc7+ 22. Ke6 Qe5+ 23. Kf7 Qf5+ 24.
Ke8 Qg6+ 25. Kd8 Be5 26. g4 Qd6+ 27. Ke8 Bxh2 28. Bxh2 Qxh2) (3. Kf7 Qh6 4.
Qxg4 Qh7+ 5. Qg7 Re7+) 3... Bb6 4. Qg6 Kb2 5. Qg7 Kc2 6. Qg6 Ba7 7. Qg7 Kc3 8.
Qg6 Kb2 9. Kf7 Qg5 10. Qxg5 Rxg5 11. Ke6 Bb6 12. Kd7 Rg8 13. Ke6 Kc3 14. Bb5
Kd2 15. Kf7 Rg5 16. Ke8 Kd1 17. Kd7 Rg8 18. Ke7 Ke2 19. Kf7 Rb8 20. Bc4 Kf1 21.
Bb3 Kg2 22. Kg6 Kxh1 23. Kg5 Ba7 24. Kxg4 (24. Bc2) 24... Rxb3 25. Kxh3 c4 26.
g4 cxd3 27. Bf4 Kxg1 28. Kg3 Rb2 29. g5 d2 30. Bxd2 Rxd2 31. Kxf3 Rxf2+ 32. Ke4
Re2+ 33. Kd3 Re3+ 34. Kd2 Ra3 35. Kc2 d3+ 36. Kb2 d2 37. Kc2 Ra2+ 38. Kd1 Kf2
39. g6 Ke3 40. g7 Kd3 41. g8=Q Ra1#) 2... Qg5+ 3. Kf7 (3. Kd7 Qxg7+) 3... Qf5+
4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8
Qf5+ 11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 (13... Kc2 14. Kh8 Qh6+ 15. Kg8 Kd1
16. Bb3+ Ke2 17. Bc4 Kf1 18. Kf7 Qh7 19. Kf8 Qf5+ 20. Ke7 Qg6 21. Kf8 Qf6+ 22.
Kg8 Kg2 23. Kh7 Qf7 24. Kh8 Qh5+ 25. Kg8 Kxh1 26. Kf8 Qf5+ 27. Ke7 Qg6 28. Kf8
Qf6+ 29. Kg8 Kg2 30. Kh8 Kf1 31. Kh7 Qf7 32. Kh8 Qh5+ 33. Kg8 Ke2 34. Kf8 Qf5+
35. Ke8 Qg6+ 36. Kf8 Qf6+ 37. Kg8 Kd2 38. Kh7 Qf7 39. Kh8 Qh5+ 40. Kg8 Kc3 41.
Kf8 Qf5+ 42. Ke7 Qg6 43. Kf8 Qf6+ 44. Kg8 Kb4 45. Kh7) (13... Qf5 14. Kh8 Qh5+
15. Kg8 Kc3 16. Kf8 Qf5+ 17. Ke8 Qg6+ 18. Kf8 Qf6+ 19. Kg8 Kc2 20. Kh7 Qf7 21.
Kh8 Qh5+ 22. Kg8 Qg6 23. Kf8 Qf6+ 24. Kg8 Ba7 (24... Kd2 25. Kh7 Qf7 26. Kh8
Qh5+ 27. Kg8 Ke1 28. Kf8 Qf5+ 29. Ke7 Qg6 30. Kf8 Qf6+ 31. Kg8 Kf1 32. Kh7 Qf5+
33. Kh6 Qf7 34. Kh7 Ke2 35. Kh8) 25. Kh8 Qe5 26. Kh7 Qf5+ 27. Kh8 Qh5+ 28. Kg8
Kd2 29. Kf8 Qf5+ 30. Ke7 Qg6 31. Kf8 Qf6+ 32. Kg8 Ke1 33. Kh7 Qf5+ 34. Kh8 Qh5+
35. Kg8 Qg6 36. Bb3 Kf1 37. Kh8 Qh5+ 38. Kg8 Kg2 39. Bc4 Kxh1 40. Kf8 Qf5+ 41.
Ke7 Qg6 42. Kf8 Qf6+ 43. Kg8 Qf5 44. Kh8 Qh5+ 45. Kg8 Kg2 46. Ba2 Qg6 47. Bc4
Qe8+ 48. Kh7 Qh5+ 49. Kg8 Bb6 50. Kf8 Qf5+ 51. Ke7 Qg6 52. Kf8 Qf6+ 53. Kg8 Kf1
54. Kh7 Qf5+ 55. Kg8 Ke2 56. Kh8 Qh5+ 57. Kg8 Qg6 58. Kf8 Qf6+ 59. Kg8 Kd2 60.
Kh7 Qf5+ 61. Kh8 Qh5+ 62. Kg8 Kc3 63. Kf8 Qf5+ 64. Kg8 Kc2 65. Kh8 Qe5 66. Kg8
Qe8+ 67. Kh7 Qf7 68. Kh8 (68. Kh6 Qg8 69. Kg6 Kd2 70. Kh6 Kc3 71. Kg6 Kc2 72.
Bb5 Qe8+ 73. Kg5 Qf7 74. Kh6 Kd1 75. Bc4 Ke1 76. Bb3 Qg8 77. Ba2 Ke2 78. Bc4
Kf1 79. Kg6 Ba5 80. a7 Kg2 81. Bb5 Bb6 82. a8=Q Qxa8 83. Kh7 Ba5 84. g8=Q Qxg8+
85. Kxg8 Be1 86. Kf8 Bxf2 87. Bxf2 Kxf2 88. Ke8 Kg2 89. Kd7 Kxh2 90. Kxc7 f2
91. Kxd6 f1=Q 92. c7 Qf8+ 93. Kc6 Kxg3 94. Kb7 h2 95. c8=Q Qxc8+ 96. Kxc8 h1=Q
97. d6 Qh8+ 98. Kc7 Qe5 99. Kc6 Kh3 100. d7 Qb8 101. Kxc5 g3 102. Bc6 Qd8 103.
Kd6 g2 104. Bxg2+ Kxg2 105. Kc6 Kf3 106. Kd6 Ke3 107. Ke6 Kxd3 108. Kf5 Qxd7+
109. Kf4 Qe6 110. Kf3 Qf5+ 111. Kg3 Ke3 112. Kg2 Qg6+ 113. Kf1 Qg8 114. Ke1
Qg1#)) 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8 Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8
Qf6+ 20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8 Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6
26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+ 29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32.
Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8 Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8 38. Kf8
Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7 Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6
45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+ 47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. a7+ {50 reset} (49. Kh8
{<DTM without 50 moves counting only} Kc8 (49... Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8 Ba5
52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Bd2 56. Kh7 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Bg5
58. Bb3 Ka7 59. Ba4 Qg6 60. Bd1 Bf6 61. Kf8 Qxg7+ 62. Ke8 Qe7#) 50. Kg8 (50. a7
Bxa7 51. Ba6+ Kd8 52. Kh7 Qf7 53. Kh6 Ke7 54. Kg5 Qxg7+ 55. Kf5 Bb6 56. Bc8 Ba5
57. Bb7 Bd2 58. Bc8 Qg5+ 59. Ke4 Qe5#) 50... Qf5 51. Kh8 (51. a7 Bxa7 52. Ba6+
Kd8 53. Kh8 Qh5+ 54. Kg8 Ke7 55. Bc8 Kf6 56. Be6 Qg6 57. Kf8 Qxg7+ 58. Ke8 Qe7#
) 51... Qh5+ 52. Kg8 {50} Kd8 53. Bb5 Ke7 54. Bc4 Kf6 55. Bb5 Qf7+ 56. Kh8
Qxg7#) 49... Kxa7 50. Kh7 Qf5+ 51. Kh8 Qh5+ 52. Kg8 Ba5 53. Kf8 Qf5+ 54. Ke8
Qg6+ 55. Kf8 Qf6+ 56. Kg8 Bd2 57. Kh7 Qh6+ 58. Kg8 Bg5 59. Bb3 Qg6 60. Kf8 Qf6+
61. Kg8 Bh6 62. Ba4 Qxg7# 0-1
[/pgn]
Last edited by peter on Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
Peter.
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:14 am
Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:36 am
peter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:18 am
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - -"]

1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+
6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8 Qf5+
11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8
Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8 Qf6+
20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8
Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6 26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+
29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32. Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8
Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8
38. Kf8 Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7
Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6 45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+
47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. Kh8 Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8
Kc8 52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Kd8
56. Kh8 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Ke7 58. Bb3 c4 59. a7 Kf6 60. Kf8
Qxg7+ 61. Ke8 Qe7# 0-1
[/pgn]
44...Bb6 and then 48...Kb8 ? Do you think that is a waste of time?
No, if my mating- score at Backward is correct to that point, yet there's much doubt about the distances to mate and to 50 moves anyhow with engines chosing shorter DsTM to avoid 50 moves. Right now I'm trying with an old Cfish version of mine having UCI parameter of raising 50 to 100 moves.
With this one at your position in question as for 44...Bb6, sorry for german abbr.:

[d]k5K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN b - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
Tiefe: 116/30 00:01:12 6086MN
What I mean is, you should try 44...Kb8, instead of Bb6.
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peter
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:21 am What I mean is, you should try 44...Kb8, instead of Bb6.
You're right as for 50 moves, this one engine without counting that just doesn't choose, because it makes DTM longer again, as it seems.
Before 44..., (having "seen" ...Kb8 already too as for DTM then):

k5K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN b - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

44...Lb6 45.Kf8 Df5+ 46.Ke7 Dg6 47.Kf8 Df6+ 48.Kg8 La5 49.Kh7 Df5+ 50.Kh8 Dh5+ 51.Kg8 Ld2 52.Kf8 Lh6 53.Ke7 Lg5+ 54.Kf8 Dh6 55.Kg8 Dg6 56.La2 Lf6 57.Kf8 Dxg7+ 58.Ke8 De7#
(-#15) Tiefe: 126/30 00:00:52 4712MN

44...Kb8:
1k4K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN w - - 0 1

Analysis by Cfish 210718 64 POPCNT NUMA:

45.Lb3 Kc8 46.Kf8 Df5+ 47.Ke7 Dg6 48.g8D+ Dxg8 49.Kf6 Lb6 50.Kf5 Kb8 51.a7+ Kxa7 52.Ld1 La5 53.Lxf3 gxf3 54.Kf6 Ld2 55.g4 Lg5+ 56.Kf5 Dg7 57.Le5 Dxe5+ 58.Kg6 Df6+ 59.Kh7 Df7+ 60.Kh8 Lf6#
(-#16) Tiefe: 93/33 00:00:17 1794MN
:)
So I'll now have to check with normal 50 moves boundary and edit my .pgn in that way again, still not sure about 50 moves to be reached or not.

Edit, edit, edit:

45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke7 Qg6 47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kc8 49. Kh7 Qf5+ 50. Kh6 Qf7 51. Kh7 Kd8 52.Kh8 draw 50.

Output at 44...Kb8 with Crystal counting 50 moves normally:

1k4K1/b1p3P1/P1Pp4/2pP3q/2Bp2p1/3P1pPp/5P1B/6BN w - - 0 1

45.Kf8 Dh6 46.Kf7 Dh5+
= (0.00) Tiefe: 45/6 00:00:01 47094kN

So 45.Bb3 in output above is blunder of Cfish without 50 moves rule yet regards
Peter.
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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer »

peter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:18 am
Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:34 am
Paloma wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:12 pm
Hobacle wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm
2.Kxe7 and then?
1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+ 6. Kg8 Bb6 7.
Kh7 Qf5+ 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2
Could you post your solution completely?
If I may hop in again, how about that:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hobacle"]
[Black "Juli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2p1r1P1/P1Pp1K2/b1pP4/1qBp2p1/3P1pPp/3N1P1B/k5BN b - -"]

1... Qxd2 2. Kxe7 Qg5+ 3. Kf7 Qf5+ 4. Ke7 Qg6 5. Kf8 Qf6+
6. Kg8 Bb6 7. Kh7 Qf7 8. Kh8 Qh5+ 9. Kg8 Kb2 10. Kf8 Qf5+
11. Ke7 Qg6 12. Kf8 Qf6+ 13. Kg8 Ka3 14. Kh7 Qf5+ 15. Kh8
Qh5+ 16. Kg8 Ka4 17. Kf8 Qf5+ 18. Ke7 Qg6 19. Kf8 Qf6+
20. Kg8 Ka5 21. Kh7 Qf7 22. Kh8 Qh5+ 23. Kg8 Ba7 24. Kf8
Qf5+ 25. Ke7 Qg6 26. Kf8 Qf6+ 27. Kg8 Kb6 28. Kh7 Qf5+
29. Kh8 Qh5+ 30. Kg8 Bb8 31. Kf8 Qf5+ 32. Ke7 Qg6 33. Kf8
Qf6+ 34. Kg8 Ka7 35. Kh7 Qf7 36. Kh8 Qh5+ 37. Kg8 Ka8
38. Kf8 Qf5+ 39. Ke8 Qg6+ 40. Kf8 Qf6+ 41. Kg8 Ba7 42. Kh7
Qf7 43. Kh8 Qh5+ 44. Kg8 Bb6 45. Kf8 Qf5+ 46. Ke8 Qg6+
47. Kf8 Qf6+ 48. Kg8 Kb8 49. Kh8 Qe5 50. Kh7 Qh5+ 51. Kg8
Kc8 52. Kf8 {50} Qf5+ 53. Ke7 Qg6 54. Kf8 Qf6+ 55. Kg8 Kd8
56. Kh8 Qh6+ 57. Kg8 Ke7 58. Bb3 c4 59. a7 Kf6 60. Kf8
Qxg7+ 61. Ke8 Qe7# 0-1
[/pgn]

50 moves reached at 52 (see comment) making engine think it's drawn, which it really is of course as for no-study-rules unless I gave away more than 10 moves yet in .pgn above. Seeing it strictly bound to game- playing rules over the board (which I wouldn't as for studies) one could call it cooked too, if my "solution" is correct at all.

Sorry, Paloma, couldn't sit on my fingers and I had to show my latest idea, not to take the h1- Knight at all. Before I saw that, way forth and back with King along that detour costed me many unnecessary moves in older 2.Kxe7- lines of mine. This one's the longest I have so far yet still anyhow now.

And the line fits to this point of the thread best, having your part of the solution here already regards

until Ka8 was reached this was my solution as well (i tried to describe this in words "only" at page 1) i did not investigate further until now and saw that this is violating the 50 move-rule...thx for posting the adequate line, Peter !...maybe the critical comment is this: "Every chess player has a compass in his heart, which points to the future of chess in his mind. This puzzle stands for the compass of mine."
its easy to misunderstand this, but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...rules make our world and its common knowledge that rules are "best finds" of current state of knowlege and EXPERIENCE !...my interpretation is this: "make new rules if common sense screems for them"...the new eara in chess, "the holy grail of intellectual superiority", is no longer held by US, BUT by calculating power, combined with stored knowledge of thousend of games which overwhelming exceeds our capabilities...the 50-move-"eara" is good for us in competitive chess, YES!!, but only when we play each another....not when we try to find a "truth"....is it draw (really) when i mate u by force in move 51 but the rule tells that it is a draw at move 50 ??!...no...its just a rule...new senses come from experience and aknowledgments...i think its time to make new rules to fit the current state of knowledge we gratefully got by science and we did not had before this eara!?...great respect to this study by Hobacle !...i may understand this wrong, his intention, his solution, his mindgoing, his whole intention to offer THIS one...it is a MATE whatever u do !!!...;-)...great respect
sincerly Peer, and i might be comletely wrong, cool, stay healthy !!
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Hobacle »

Spliffjiffer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:11 pm but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...
If that's all, then I don't need to step in because many composers HAVE composed puzzles 'above' the 50-move rule. Do you remember my Hard Puzzle for June? If you move the White King to h8, then the puzzle becomes a draw by the 50-move rule, but a win for White when you ignore it. And, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74234&start=10#p848058
The future is something has not come yet. It CANNOT be seen, but can be inferred.

But one thing is true: there is a mate definitely!
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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Spliffjiffer »

Hobacle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:59 pm
Spliffjiffer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:11 pm but the "solution" IS THERE when we ignore the 50-move-rule...this is a MATE DEFINATELY!...
If that's all, then I don't need to step in because many composers HAVE composed puzzles 'above' the 50-move rule. Do you remember my Hard Puzzle for June? If you move the White King to h8, then the puzzle becomes a draw by the 50-move rule, but a win for White when you ignore it. And, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74234&start=10#p848058
The future is something has not come yet. It CANNOT be seen, but can be inferred.

But one thing is true: there is a mate definitely!
how to get the king to a8/b8 without having managed the bishop to get to b8 is my problem atm

in my sight of view i need to bring the bishop to b8 first to open the way for my king to get towards the centre(say d8,e8...managed after i got the king to a8)...my way is: bring the king to a8 and go to the enamy king and steel the pawn on g7 this is a inferior idia because of the 50-move-rule...i cannot get the the king to a8 whithout plaing Bb6!?...what do i miss?
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
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Paloma
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:07 pm
Full name: Herbert L

Re: Hard Puzzle for July

Post by Paloma »

45.Kf8 must be a worst move.
Chest has after Kf8 a mate in 14 for black! (C0/R0/K6/P4/X11)

45...Qf5+ -14# 46.Ke8 Qg6+ 47.Kf8 Qf6+ 48.Kg8 Ba5 -11# 49.Kh7 Qf5+ 50.Kh8 Qh5+ 51.Kg8 Bd2 52.a7 Bg5 53.Kf8 Qh6 54.Kg8 Qg6 55.Ba6 Bf6 56.Bb7+ Kxa7 57.Kf8 Qxg7+ 58.Ke8 Qe7#
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