ICGA's 2015 World Computer Chess Championship/Events

[Laskos]

Kai, what is your opinion surrounding both the 1337 ChessPRO series and the KING ASAD books? I use the 1337 commercial books.

I am no expert, and it depends on version used. AFAIK King Asad is larger and tends to be better with white. In BooksWar, the older version of 1337 performs worse than the public (and older) version of King Asad. That's all I can suggest, my bet would be on an updated King Asad.

[Laskos]

Kai, what is your opinion surrounding both the 1337 ChessPRO series and the KING ASAD books? I use the 1337 commercial books.

I am no expert, and it depends on version used. AFAIK King Asad is larger and tends to be better with white. In BooksWar, the older version of 1337 performs worse than the public (and older) version of King Asad. That's all I can suggest, my bet would be on an updated King Asad.

After a long while (several years) I tested some good CTG books, I got some taste after seeing polyglot ones. Yes, using the latest Stockfish, King Asad Vipre from January clobbers at 1'+1'' both ChessPro 1337 from November (300 games, +39 -9, the rest equal, high draw rate) and the BooksWar champion Rising Star from December (100 games, +36 -2, the rest equal, lower draw rate). I suspect that the later King Asad Vipre (January) is tuned against the two strong, but earlier books. It's important to be updated with these books

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

Kai, what is your opinion surrounding both the 1337 ChessPRO series and the KING ASAD books? I use the 1337 commercial books.

I am no expert, and it depends on version used. AFAIK King Asad is larger and tends to be better with white. In BooksWar, the older version of 1337 performs worse than the public (and older) version of King Asad. That's all I can suggest, my bet would be on an updated King Asad.

After a long while (several years) I tested some good CTG books, I got some taste after seeing polyglot ones. Yes, using the latest Stockfish, King Asad Vipre from January clobbers at 1'+1'' both ChessPro 1337 from November (300 games, +39 -9, the rest equal, high draw rate) and the BooksWar champion Rising Star from December (100 games, +36 -2, the rest equal, lower draw rate). I suspect that the later King Asad Vipre (January) is tuned against the two strong, but earlier books. It's important to be updated with these books

Thank you Kai. I have been committed to 1337 for sometime, but King Asad Vipre version 5 if I am not mistaken has just been released this February, so I will probably go with that. The book is a lot cheaper too. The only issue is that I do not use CTG; I only use .bin books in Winboard. I do not know if the author is willing to create polyglot versions of his books. I've heard it's easy.

[michiguel]

I have the feeling that using books may increase white advantage. Anyway, simulations with 30 elo of white advantage are below.
Tie breaks are not applied. Those cases are the ones listed as "shared". When there was only one winner is listed as "outright".
I can try to implement some SB rules.

Miguel

Code: Select all

===========

Color when 1 plays white against 2

Total engines = 11
Total games = 55
Total rounds = 11
Total boards = 5
Total cycles = 1000000
draw rate (equal strength) = 64.0%
White advantage = 30.0
rating[0]=3200
rating[1]=3100
rating[2]=3050
rating[3]=3000
rating[4]=2950
rating[5]=2900
rating[6]=2700
rating[7]=2700
rating[8]=2200
rating[9]=2200
rating[10]=2200

won    = 622003
shared = 177919
loss   = 200078
total  = 1000000
won outright % = 62.2  <===============
won shared   % = 17.8

========

Reversed colors

Total engines = 11
Total games = 55
Total rounds = 11
Total boards = 5
Total cycles = 1000000
draw rate &#40;equal strength&#41; = 64.0%
White advantage = 30.0
rating&#91;0&#93;=3200
rating&#91;1&#93;=3100
rating&#91;2&#93;=3050
rating&#91;3&#93;=3000
rating&#91;4&#93;=2950
rating&#91;5&#93;=2900
rating&#91;6&#93;=2700
rating&#91;7&#93;=2700
rating&#91;8&#93;=2200
rating&#91;9&#93;=2200
rating&#91;10&#93;=2200

won    = 586411
shared = 186268
loss   = 227321
total  = 1000000
won outright % = 58.6 <===============
won shared   % = 18.6

I used drawelo of 200, which gives lower draw rate than your 64% for equal opponents. 64% seems a bit high, it's valid only for several top engines, the rest have lower draw rates. Can you use 56%? Probably my drawelo of 200 is a bit too low, though.

I used 64% just to compare with Peter's. Just to make it clear, this is between equal opponents. Between opponents of different strength scales down automatically.

One of the limitations of Ordo (and any other rating software for that matter) is that the draw rate (between equal opponents) is assumed constant throughout the rating spectrum, and this is not true. So, an average needs to be used (the model will be improved when I work with the wilo model).

Here are several combinations (reversed colors, #2 plays white against #1)

draw rate (equal strength) = 56.0%
White advantage = 30.0
won = 564497
shared = 179396
loss = 256107
total = 1000000
won outright % = 56.4
won shared % = 17.9

draw rate (equal strength) = 50.0%
White advantage = 30.0
won = 548826
shared = 173783
loss = 277391
total = 1000000
won outright % = 54.9
won shared % = 17.4

draw rate (equal strength) = 40.0%
White advantage = 30.0
won = 524417
shared = 164144
loss = 311439
total = 1000000
won outright % = 52.4
won shared % = 16.4

Thanks, that is very close to my results (52% draw rate for drawelo 200 and equal opponents). In fact I used a hacked in 5 minutes simulator for TCEC, where the drawelo_var was a variable function of Elos of opponents as drawelo*Elo/3200, with SF and Komodo Elo at 3200, and drawelo of 260. This is a gross approximation to take into account the strength of engines. When hacking the sim, I set drawelo 200 for WCCC, but inadvertently kept the dependence on Elos.

Then, in case of ties, I used random assignment of places, say 2 engines are tied, one engine has 50% of a win in that run, 50% the other. Didn't use colors.

I cleaned it, and a I am releasing the code and binaries.
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55514

Miguel

[Laskos]

Kai, what is your opinion surrounding both the 1337 ChessPRO series and the KING ASAD books? I use the 1337 commercial books.

I am no expert, and it depends on version used. AFAIK King Asad is larger and tends to be better with white. In BooksWar, the older version of 1337 performs worse than the public (and older) version of King Asad. That's all I can suggest, my bet would be on an updated King Asad.

After a long while (several years) I tested some good CTG books, I got some taste after seeing polyglot ones. Yes, using the latest Stockfish, King Asad Vipre from January clobbers at 1'+1'' both ChessPro 1337 from November (300 games, +39 -9, the rest equal, high draw rate) and the BooksWar champion Rising Star from December (100 games, +36 -2, the rest equal, lower draw rate). I suspect that the later King Asad Vipre (January) is tuned against the two strong, but earlier books. It's important to be updated with these books

Thank you Kai. I have been committed to 1337 for sometime, but King Asad Vipre version 5 if I am not mistaken has just been released this February, so I will probably go with that. The book is a lot cheaper too. The only issue is that I do not use CTG; I only use .bin books in Winboard. I do not know if the author is willing to create polyglot versions of his books. I've heard it's easy.

I have some books of January, maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions easily. I used 3 books from January, PlaychessNightmare (PN), a newer 1337 ChessPro (1337), King Asad Vipre 4 (KA), and a book from December, Rising Star (RS). The results are mixed, with PN coming on top. You can see individual results too.


Ratings:

Code: Select all

   # PLAYER                           : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)
   1 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 PN      : 3066.5      93.5     150   62.3%
   2 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 1337    : 2994.6      73.5     150   49.0%
   3 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 RS      : 2991.0      72.5     150   48.3%
   4 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 KA      : 2948.0      60.5     150   40.3%

And there are more good books like Sicilian Hunt, Bagus, Anaconda, etc. Still more are private. I think the important issue is to be updated at least once a month or to build own book.

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

Kai, what is your opinion surrounding both the 1337 ChessPRO series and the KING ASAD books? I use the 1337 commercial books.

I am no expert, and it depends on version used. AFAIK King Asad is larger and tends to be better with white. In BooksWar, the older version of 1337 performs worse than the public (and older) version of King Asad. That's all I can suggest, my bet would be on an updated King Asad.

After a long while (several years) I tested some good CTG books, I got some taste after seeing polyglot ones. Yes, using the latest Stockfish, King Asad Vipre from January clobbers at 1'+1'' both ChessPro 1337 from November (300 games, +39 -9, the rest equal, high draw rate) and the BooksWar champion Rising Star from December (100 games, +36 -2, the rest equal, lower draw rate). I suspect that the later King Asad Vipre (January) is tuned against the two strong, but earlier books. It's important to be updated with these books

Thank you Kai. I have been committed to 1337 for sometime, but King Asad Vipre version 5 if I am not mistaken has just been released this February, so I will probably go with that. The book is a lot cheaper too. The only issue is that I do not use CTG; I only use .bin books in Winboard. I do not know if the author is willing to create polyglot versions of his books. I've heard it's easy.

I have some books of January, maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions easily. I used 3 books from January, PlaychessNightmare (PN), a newer 1337 ChessPro (1337), King Asad Vipre 4 (KA), and a book from December, Rising Star (RS). The results are mixed, with PN coming on top. You can see individual results too.


Ratings:

Code: Select all

   # PLAYER                           : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)
   1 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 PN      : 3066.5      93.5     150   62.3%
   2 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 1337    : 2994.6      73.5     150   49.0%
   3 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 RS      : 2991.0      72.5     150   48.3%
   4 Stockfish 260215 64 BMI2 KA      : 2948.0      60.5     150   40.3%

And there are more good books like Sicilian Hunt, Bagus, Anaconda, etc. Still more are private. I think the important issue is to be updated at least once a month or to build own book.

Thank you Kai for all of this fantastic information. I am using BookX.bin now as it is very strong according to Bookwars rating lists from January. It has already brought me great success in my matches.

[Alibaba]

anyway, it would be very nice to see any of the TOP 10 Engines in this Event.
Clearly Komodo and Stockfish will be favorites but i think if Junior has a 2 times faster HW and good book which leads to typical Junior like positions, Junior can beat Stockfish and Komodo in a single game and decide the Event with this game....

so i hope sf or ko will participate and give the audience amazing games...

Regards
Andi

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

anyway, it would be very nice to see any of the TOP 10 Engines in this Event.
Clearly Komodo and Stockfish will be favorites but i think if Junior has a 2 times faster HW and good book which leads to typical Junior like positions, Junior can beat Stockfish and Komodo in a single game and decide the Event with this game....

so i hope sf or ko will participate and give the audience amazing games...

Regards
Andi

It would just be a complete blowout. SF will probably never participate, so it really doesn't matter to speculate. Deep Junior is far too weak. Twice the hardware won't do anything. And openings aren't that difficult to deal with... it would just be a complete blowout; everybody knows this.

[Laskos]

anyway, it would be very nice to see any of the TOP 10 Engines in this Event.
Clearly Komodo and Stockfish will be favorites but i think if Junior has a 2 times faster HW and good book which leads to typical Junior like positions, Junior can beat Stockfish and Komodo in a single game and decide the Event with this game....

so i hope sf or ko will participate and give the audience amazing games...

Regards
Andi

It would just be a complete blowout. SF will probably never participate, so it really doesn't matter to speculate. Deep Junior is far too weak. Twice the hardware won't do anything. And openings aren't that difficult to deal with... it would just be a complete blowout; everybody knows this.

You seem to not have a feel about Elo differences. Games 1' + 1'', Texel on 4 cores and using PlaychessNightmare.ctg book. Stockfish on one core, no book:

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

anyway, it would be very nice to see any of the TOP 10 Engines in this Event.
Clearly Komodo and Stockfish will be favorites but i think if Junior has a 2 times faster HW and good book which leads to typical Junior like positions, Junior can beat Stockfish and Komodo in a single game and decide the Event with this game....

so i hope sf or ko will participate and give the audience amazing games...

Regards
Andi

It would just be a complete blowout. SF will probably never participate, so it really doesn't matter to speculate. Deep Junior is far too weak. Twice the hardware won't do anything. And openings aren't that difficult to deal with... it would just be a complete blowout; everybody knows this.

You seem to not have a feel about Elo differences. Games 1' + 1'', Texel on 4 cores and using PlaychessNightmare.ctg book. Stockfish on one core, no book:

Texel is stronger than Deep Junior, at least the latest version... SF will never enter with one core... 16+ will win the tournament... a 64 core deep junior for instance would not be scary... and scaling with more cores always gets worse... one core engines men nothing... I understand Elo enough.