Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian)

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Evert
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Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian).

Post by Evert » Fri May 01, 2015 8:29 pm

wgarvin wrote: Google Translate made me laugh out loud with this one:
The main components of virtually any protein-free chess are searching and assessment of the position.
But still, its extremely readable. Its amazing how good automated translation is these days.
I have found it to be very hit-and-miss. See here for a good laugh: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56128

I'm sure it depends a lot on how much effort has gone into translating between particular languages, and the text in question.

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hgm
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Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian).

Post by hgm » Fri May 01, 2015 9:11 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:1-0 is the damage if you are white
0-1 is the damage if you are black, and 1/2 a bit less so, if the abilities are equal.

Search deep enough, and even evaluation is irrelevant. Only move generation is needed.

OK, that's really deep.
If a game is fully solved, then indeed, there is no place for a heuristic evaluation. Mate solvers have no use for piece values.

But for an efficient search (rather than a 32-men tablebase), you would still need a heuristic evaluation to allow the engine to focus on the 'promising' branches through NMP or LMR, and for iterative deepening to make sense. There is no hope at all that you could solve chess through a depth-first fixed-depth search without iterative deepening.

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Results of 234 players.

Post by Ajedrecista » Sat May 02, 2015 5:01 pm

Hello:

I managed to compile Vladimir's tool and I tested it through 234 PGNs of this site. There are some extreme cases as you will notice:

Code: Select all

www.pgnmentor.com/files.html

10,000 iterations for each player with pgnlearn.exe by Vladimir Medvedev.
Pawn = 100 centipawns for each player (234 players in total).
Each piece value has been rounded to the nearest centipawn.

     PLAYER          Games             N        B        R        Q

Adams             (2767 games)        214      226      386      798
Akobian           ( 961 games)        220      235      339      734
Akopian           (1734 games)        202      223      320      783
Alburt            ( 776 games)        247      323      435      857
Alekhine          (1661 games)        214      272      391      710
Alekseev          (1239 games)        273      300      407      818
Almasi            (1739 games)        220      234      383      754
Anand             (2917 games)        216      220      355      762
Anderssen         ( 681 games)        286      289      531     1014
Andersson         (2641 games)        189      208      307      612
Andreikin         ( 907 games)        151      182      282      584
Aronian           (1887 games)        255      334      441      866
Ashley            ( 414 games)        255      256      381      729
Averbakh          ( 885 games)        157      194      254      463
Azmaiparashvili   (1318 games)        280      296      467      926
Bacrot            (2175 games)        190      229      387      857
Bareev            (1844 games)        236      291      432      820
Becerra Rivero    ( 967 games)        212      208      365      701
Beliavsky         (2920 games)        239      295      400      855
Benjamin          (1628 games)        189      225      354      714
Benko             (1376 games)        201      238      331      675
Berliner          (  64 games)        230      186      407     1227
Bernstein         ( 261 games)        199      247      347      746
Bird              ( 353 games)        212      285      416      786
Bisguier          (1186 games)        204      243      348      644
Blackburne        ( 738 games)        213      234      332      740
Blatny            (1751 games)        298      333      446      971
Bogoljubow        ( 973 games)        263      273      388      858
Boleslavsky       ( 651 games)        235      311      503     1005
Bologan           (2363 games)        256      291      474      901
Botvinnik         ( 891 games)        260      305      410      956
Bronstein         (1930 games)        229      288      403      855
Browne            (1620 games)        254      264      403      874
Bruzón            ( 690 games)        204      220      371      625
Bu Xiangzhi       (1307 games)        242      272      368      739
Byrne             (1013 games)        215      256      373      656
Capablanca        ( 597 games)        254      257      372      702
Carlsen           (1730 games)        213      243      352      786
Caruana           (1305 games)        282      305      452      974
Chiburdanidze     (1323 games)        204      231      366      657
Chigorin          ( 688 games)        219      300      382      770
Christiansen      (1592 games)        246      268      410      890
DeFirmian         (1683 games)        219      254      355      774
De La Bourdonnais ( 101 games)        307       80      433     1155
Denker            ( 404 games)        143      232      337      528
Ding Liren        ( 481 games)        206      236      344      678
Domínguez Pérez   ( 750 games)        312      336      490      894
Dreev             (2742 games)        224      267      393      861
Dzindzichashvili  ( 780 games)        250      276      325      692
Ehlvest           (2449 games)        195      224      336      702
Eljanov           (1265 games)        196      257      367      665
Euwe              (1122 games)        183      213      341      636
Evans             ( 685 games)        227      254      437      915
Fedorowicz        (1357 games)        257      310      449      834
Fine              ( 305 games)        215      291      319      526
Finegold          ( 835 games)        258      283      355      797
Fischer           ( 827 games)        240      273      394      805
Fishbein          ( 448 games)        177      250      357      639
Flohr             ( 986 games)        198      219      316      640
Gaprindashvili    (1075 games)        218      228      448      833
Gashimov          ( 953 games)        235      257      380      927
Gelfand           (2748 games)        247      296      431      912
Geller            (2198 games)        199      238      333      691
Georgiev          (2362 games)        260      280      373      742
Giri              ( 912 games)        297      358      438      808
Gligoric          (2898 games)        265      335      452      932
Goldin            ( 898 games)        268      308      461      880
Granda Zúñiga     (1510 games)        225      296      422      737
Grischuk          (2190 games)        237      270      376      759
Gulko             (1874 games)        135      189      257      652
Gunsberg          ( 319 games)        238      300      480     1085
Gurevich, Dmitry  (1535 games)        239      273      386      833
Gurevich, Mikhail (2372 games)        199      243      340      800
Harikrishna       (1431 games)        301      309      478      798
Hort              (3070 games)        193      235      360      736
Horwitz           ( 113 games)        558      592      967     1810
Hou Yifan         (1190 games)        260      271      378      766
Huebner           (2087 games)        186      214      350      717
Ibragimov         (1435 games)        291      327      488     1019
Illescas Córdoba  (1389 games)        272      320      404      924
Ivanchuk          (3554 games)        234      253      391      801
Ivanov, Alexander (1218 games)        229      246      369      878
Ivanov, Igor      ( 784 games)        311      307      404      831
Ivkov             (2505 games)        250      274      369      719
Jakovenko         (1335 games)        269      326      449      740
Janowski          ( 769 games)        223      247      369      770
Jobava            (1161 games)        238      301      372      807
Jussupow          (1920 games)        193      215      331      709
Kaidanov          (1085 games)        245      295      444      877
Kamsky            (1744 games)        257      264      408      787
Karjakin          (1793 games)        248      289      419      842
Karpov            (3351 games)        275      294      426      945
Kasimdzhanov      (1383 games)        202      207      319      604
Kasparov          (2027 games)        159      228      334      639
Kavalek           (1328 games)        268      311      438      886
Keres             (1571 games)        162      205      293      575
Khalifman         (2127 games)        178      227      373      799
Kholmov           (1900 games)        209      227      317      712
Koneru            (1196 games)        233      301      466      888
Korchnoi          (4565 games)        240      272      417      806
Korobov           (1021 games)        242      284      378      765
Kosteniuk         (1477 games)        282      320      522     1087
Kotov             ( 641 games)        192      220      399      857
Kramnik           (2487 games)        213      262      358      722
Krasenkow         (2212 games)        214      243      339      646
Krush             (1407 games)        233      251      376      758
Kudrin            (1186 games)        293      324      446     1080
Lahno             ( 919 games)        265      263      388      688
Larsen            (2383 games)        232      254      307      603
Lasker            ( 900 games)        231      260      486      744
Lautier           (1796 games)        217      234      359      722
Le Quang Liem     ( 996 games)        265      303      439      842
Leko              (2202 games)        234      242      412      838
Levenfish         ( 354 games)        129      175      388      747
Li Chao           ( 670 games)        290      293      542      988
Lilienthal        ( 649 games)        268      303      443      823
Ljubojevic        (1944 games)        225      241      357      772
Lputian           (1552 games)        202      234      374      773
MacKenzie         ( 198 games)        737      828     1187     2728
Malakhov          (1422 games)        213      253      369      630
Mamedyarov        (1707 games)        167      180      264      675
Maroczy           ( 756 games)        177      242      390      821
Marshall          (1027 games)        237      255      390      798
McDonnell         ( 106 games)        288      141      660     1338
McShane           (1134 games)        306      299      446      913
Mecking           ( 569 games)        237      268      481      934
Mikenas           ( 497 games)        218      281      404      636
Miles             (2614 games)        254      292      457      982
Milov             (1342 games)        260      321      445      902
Morozevich        (1905 games)        282      316      442      941
Morphy            ( 211 games)       -228      326       77     1557
Motylev           (1377 games)        260      247      374      777
Movsesian         (2202 games)        237      263      405      846
Najdorf           (1604 games)        213      269      395      732
Najer             (1450 games)        184      188      327      662
Nakamura          (1623 games)        290      296      425      838
Navara            (1605 games)        284      285      436      813
Negi              ( 996 games)        249      292      457      866
Nepomniachtchi    (1238 games)        203      243      368      819
Ni Hua            (1279 games)        223      232      413      810
Nielsen           (1978 games)        218      268      385      759
Nikolic           (2224 games)        200      244      357      737
Nimzowitsch       ( 512 games)        274      262      351      804
Nisipeanu         (1545 games)        225      224      431     1058
Novikov           (1318 games)        283      314      480     1035
Nunn              (1655 games)        175      229      343      645
Olafsson          ( 916 games)        224      254      361      851
Oll               (1034 games)        197      236      296      578
Onischuk          (1459 games)        233      269      409      874
Pachman           (1462 games)        200      236      329      631
Paehtz            (1626 games)        268      305      437      951
Panno             (1873 games)        225      265      390      744
Paulsen           ( 322 games)        210      279      436      837
Petrosian         (1893 games)        187      197      294      571
Philidor          (   6 games)       3058     3034     -837        0
Pillsbury         ( 388 games)        218      233      327      800
Pilnik            ( 899 games)        235      295      419      783
Polgar, Judit     (1825 games)        210      271      420     1008
Polgar, Sofia     ( 741 games)        187      215      387      714
Polgar, Zsuzsa    ( 909 games)        199      227      349      856
Polugaevsky       (1890 games)        197      244      354      765
Ponomariov        (1640 games)        240      264      443      828
Portisch          (3030 games)        202      247      382      821
Psakhis           (1963 games)        205      201      353      711
Quinteros         (1136 games)        159      220      363      693
Radjabov          (1551 games)        246      272      434      786
Reshevsky         (1267 games)        201      257      440      843
Reti              ( 646 games)        238      274      433      935
Ribli             (2112 games)        228      276      417      929
Rohde             ( 445 games)        280      277      506      915
Rubinstein        ( 797 games)        230      291      336      699
Rublevsky         (1543 games)        307      312      441     1022
Saemisch          ( 551 games)        244      287      432      947
Sakaev            (1425 games)        278      339      497      937
Salov             ( 766 games)        272      290      457     1003
Sasikiran         (1311 games)        203      249      368      712
Schlechter        ( 739 games)        182      239      360      704
Seirawan          (1483 games)        221      247      380      795
Serper            ( 848 games)        221      233      352      782
Shabalov          (2000 games)        294      354      505     1008
Shamkovich        ( 977 games)        187      213      282      675
Shirov            (3193 games)        208      247      395      817
Short             (2689 games)        229      262      395      825
Shulman           (1191 games)        266      262      439      874
Smirin            (1988 games)        183      256      378      719
Smyslov           (2627 games)        210      247      377      789
Sokolov           (2742 games)        203      267      364      777
Soltis            ( 370 games)        175      186      277      811
Spassky           (2231 games)        142      176      276      604
Speelman          (2122 games)        173      211      350      653
Spielmann         (1057 games)        216      308      374      809
Stahlberg         ( 964 games)        152      187      291      545
Staunton          ( 284 games)        285      331      643     1172
Stefanova         (1924 games)        288      319      452      866
Stein             ( 699 games)        246      329      407      871
Steinitz          ( 590 games)        216      315      399      795
Suetin            (1284 games)        205      264      350      653
Sutovsky          (1095 games)        262      233      362      773
Svidler           (2570 games)        198      245      353      756
Szabo             (1777 games)        191      259      375      791
Taimanov          (2117 games)        232      285      441      821
Tal               (2431 games)        148      171      261      572
Tarrasch          ( 704 games)        211      235      407      726
Tartakower        (1290 games)        206      252      328      713
Teichmann         ( 536 games)        275      327      439      810
Timman            (3402 games)        242      266      402      861
Tiviakov          (2507 games)        211      233      381      767
Tkachiev          (1529 games)        191      240      359      767
Tomashevsky       ( 882 games)        277      299      473      929
Topalov           (2085 games)        178      215      308      645
Torre Repetto     ( 175 games)        329      296      513      931
Uhlmann           (2537 games)        223      253      342      738
Unzicker          (1265 games)        245      309      516     1019
Vachier-Lagrave   (1332 games)        213      225      315      485
Vaganian          (2255 games)        204      234      375      839
Vallejo Pons      (1763 games)        220      249      357      833
Van Wely          (3233 games)        232      252      378      758
Vitiugov          (1009 games)        245      238      344      766
Volokitin         (1050 games)        221      252      451      854
Waitzkin          ( 385 games)        223      329      427      707
Wang Hao          (1047 games)        200      251      343      720
Wang Yue          (1195 games)        210      218      326      648
Winawer           ( 241 games)        302      297      529     1026
Wojtaszek         (1318 games)        203      281      348      648
Wojtkiewicz       (1564 games)        268      325      489      907
Wolff             ( 614 games)        293      278      437      949
Xie Jun           ( 701 games)        332      365      501      980
Ye Jiangchuan     ( 655 games)        243      271      367      875
Yermolinsky       (1407 games)        169      182      353      541
Yu Yangyi         ( 619 games)        215      239      424      796
Yudasin           (1426 games)        187      210      339      613
Zhu Chen          (1041 games)        266      286      411      878
Zukertort         ( 265 games)         80      141      295      402
Zvjaginsev        (1441 games)        239      263      359      698

min.(N) =  80 (Zukertort);         max.(N) =  737 (McKenzie).
min.(B) =  80 (De La Bourdonnais); max.(B) =  828 (Mackenzie).
min.(R) =  77 (Morphy);            max.(R) = 1187 (Mackenzie).
min.(Q) = 402 (Zukertort);         max.(Q) = 2728 (Mackenzie).

N < P for&#58;
Zukertort.

B < P for&#58;
De La Bourdonnais.

B < N for&#58;
Becerra Rivero.
Berliner.
Ivanov, Igor.
Lahno.
McShane.
Motylev.
Nimzowitsch.
Nisipeanu.
Psakhis.
Rohde.
Shulman.
Sutovsky.
Torre Repetto.
Vitiugov.
Winawer.
Wolff.

R < P for&#58;
Morphy.

Some curiosities/singularities&#58;
Knight &#40;MacKenzie&#41; > Knight &#40;Horwitz&#41; > Queen &#40;Averbakh&#41; > Queen &#40;Zukertort&#41;.
Knight &#40;Horwitz&#41; ~ 7 Bishops &#40;De La Boudonnais&#41; ~ 7 Knights &#40;Zukertort&#41;.
Bishop &#40;Mackenzie&#41; > 10 Bishops &#40;De La Bourdonnais&#41; ~ 10 Knights &#40;Zukertort&#41;.
Knight &#40;Morphy&#41; < 0 &#40;not included in min.&#40;N&#41;).
Queen &#40;McKenzie&#41; > 35 Rooks &#40;Morphy&#41;.
Philidor's values have not been included in min.&#40;j&#41; and max.&#40;j&#41; &#40;too few games? Material odds &#40;it seems that there are not material odds in those six games&#41;?).
There are not all the current top players but it is enough to show the possible weaknesses of this approach. It would be curious to see the values of each one of us... mine are surely joking.

I do not know anything about C++, but it looks like the number of iterations can be changed at regression.cpp file before compiling, exactly here:

Code: Select all

for &#40;iter = 0; iter < 10000; ++iter&#41;
I hope no typos in this long post.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Results of 234 players.

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat May 02, 2015 6:36 pm

Berliner and De La Bourdonnais both love the queen and hate the bishop.
:D

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Re: Results of 234 players.

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat May 02, 2015 6:38 pm

Philidor really did believe that "Pawns are the soul of chess!"

Gerd Isenberg
Posts: 2246
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Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian)

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Sat May 02, 2015 9:17 pm

WinPooh wrote:My article on a polular Russian IT portal:
http://habrahabr.ru/post/254753/

It is in Russian, but I believe the text is quite understandable even without translation.
Courtesy of Vladimir, I made a CPW page trying a translation with the help of google translate, improvements and suggestions welcome.

https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com ... n+Analysis

Cheers,
Gerd

SuneF
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Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian).

Post by SuneF » Sun May 03, 2015 9:37 am

Dann Corbit wrote:These weights are derived from correspondence chess:

PIECE VALUES:

Pawn: 100
Knight: 162.839
Bishop: 203.914
Rook: 306.862
Queen: 697.509
How are these derived from correspondence chess?

Granted the pawn is particularly difficult to estimate an average value of, since it could be worth anything from 0 to a queen. IMO though, in practice, a minor piece is worth more than 3 pawns "on average" based on the fact you don't see many "piece for 3 pawns" exchanges in actual games. I would consider such a trade to be more of a sacrifice.

Vinvin
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Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Results of 234 players.

Post by Vinvin » Sun May 03, 2015 10:59 am

Ajedrecista wrote:I managed to compile Vladimir's tool and I tested it through 234 PGNs of this site. There are some extreme cases as you will notice:

Code: Select all

www.pgnmentor.com/files.html

10,000 iterations for each player with pgnlearn.exe by Vladimir Medvedev.
Pawn = 100 centipawns for each player (234 players in total).
Each piece value has been rounded to the nearest centipawn.[/quote]
As I see, it's more the value of the pawn who changed more over time (pieces values between them don't change a lot). In my sense, it would be better to set the value of the knight to 300 to have a more clear view of the evolution over time.
Could you do that, please ?

Thanks,
Vincent

Vinvin
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Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian)

Post by Vinvin » Sun May 03, 2015 11:12 am

Gerd Isenberg wrote:
WinPooh wrote:My article on a polular Russian IT portal:
http://habrahabr.ru/post/254753/

It is in Russian, but I believe the text is quite understandable even without translation.
Courtesy of Vladimir, I made a CPW page trying a translation with the help of google translate, improvements and suggestions welcome.

https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com ... n+Analysis

Cheers,
Gerd
Nice page, Gerd !
I recompute the table at the middle at the page with knight = 300 instead of pawn = 100

Code: Select all

          Anand   Carlsen  Andersen 
Pawn        139		141		105
Knight      300		300		300
Bishop      319		342		303
Rook	     493		496		557
Queen      1058 	 1107	  1063
King	       &#8734;		 &#8734;		  &#8734;	

Gerd Isenberg
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Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Piece weights with regression analysis (in Russian)

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Sun May 03, 2015 12:36 pm

Vinvin wrote: I recompute the table at the middle at the page with knight = 300 instead of pawn = 100

Code: Select all

          Anand   Carlsen  Andersen 
Pawn        139		141		105
Knight      300		300		300
Bishop      319		342		303
Rook	     493		496		557
Queen      1058 	 1107	  1063
King	       &#8734;		 &#8734;		  &#8734;	
Looks much better since pawns are so volatile ...

„Tout soldat français porte dans sa giberne le bâton de maréchal de France.“

see also
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=45512

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