Komodo vs GM Smerdon knight odds match

[Chessqueen]

But meanwhile, a new idea is under discussion; it has been proposed on this forum in the past, but never tried. This would be for a GM, perhaps a reasonably strong one. Komodo gives knight odds, but Black can't castle. Since castling rights are usually worth close to a pawn on a full board, this is probably just a bit more than knight for pawn, feels about right. But I'm wondering if weak players will think "that's not a handicap, I'd sac a knight to stop castling". That's nonsense, but would it be a common misperception?

I think, whatever the perception, the results will speak for themselves. It's hard to guess prior perceptions, when even e.g. GM Sadler predicted a 6-0 Komodo win. (The more I think about that prediction, the crazier it seems. If Smerdon had lost the first few games to Komodo, maybe by blundering pieces in every one like he did in game 1, surely he would have tried to stabilize by drawing the next one or two. I don't know how Sadler could think that a GM with an extra knight who is determined to draw from move 1 could not achieve that aim.)

Personally, I think I don't like this new idea as much, because it feels like one extra change, i.e. it's getting further and further from regular chess.

Honestly it is not like getting further and further away from chess, But if Carlsen had offered just like Bobby Fischer said that he could give a Knight odds to any female World Champion, but of course nowadays we have stronger female players and Carlsen will lose horribly. But the point is if Fischer and the female world champion had played back then everything would have been acceptable, but because it is an engine like Komodo you and many other can NOT accept it. What we are dealing here is the fact that Komodo has the same advantage as being way way much stronger than an IM Like Andras Toth as Fischer did against any female back then.

Actually, Nona Gaprindashvili, World's women's champion 1962 to 1978, earned the regular GM title and peaked at 2495 FIDE. Probably she was at least 2400 FIDE strength when FIscher made the claim, although I think it was pre-FIDE ratings. So, either : 1. Fischer was talking nonsense or 2. Fischer was talking about blitz chess or 3. Fischer meant the top American woman player at the time. He did beat Hans Ree (then an IM, now GM) giving him knight odds in blitz in at least one game, so 2. would be my guess.

With your newer proposal a Knight Odds and the IM not being able to castle, I predict the score 2.5 to 3.5 for either side, since I can NOT surely know who will end up winning this Match Komodo or IM Andras Toth. For sure this would be an interesting match. And going back to If Carlsen wants to play a fair match against the top female player, even a pawn odds would be enough compensation for the female to beat Carlsen.

[lkaufman]

But meanwhile, a new idea is under discussion; it has been proposed on this forum in the past, but never tried. This would be for a GM, perhaps a reasonably strong one. Komodo gives knight odds, but Black can't castle. Since castling rights are usually worth close to a pawn on a full board, this is probably just a bit more than knight for pawn, feels about right. But I'm wondering if weak players will think "that's not a handicap, I'd sac a knight to stop castling". That's nonsense, but would it be a common misperception?

I think, whatever the perception, the results will speak for themselves. It's hard to guess prior perceptions, when even e.g. GM Sadler predicted a 6-0 Komodo win. (The more I think about that prediction, the crazier it seems. If Smerdon had lost the first few games to Komodo, maybe by blundering pieces in every one like he did in game 1, surely he would have tried to stabilize by drawing the next one or two. I don't know how Sadler could think that a GM with an extra knight who is determined to draw from move 1 could not achieve that aim.)

Personally, I think I don't like this new idea as much, because it feels like one extra change, i.e. it's getting further and further from regular chess.

Honestly it is not like getting further and further away from chess, But if Carlsen had offered just like Bobby Fischer said that he could give a Knight odds to any female World Champion, but of course nowadays we have stronger female players and Carlsen will lose horribly. But the point is if Fischer and the female world champion had played back then everything would have been acceptable, but because it is an engine like Komodo you and many other can NOT accept it. What we are dealing here is the fact that Komodo has the same advantage as being way way much stronger than an IM Like Andras Toth as Fischer did against any female back then.

Actually, Nona Gaprindashvili, World's women's champion 1962 to 1978, earned the regular GM title and peaked at 2495 FIDE. Probably she was at least 2400 FIDE strength when FIscher made the claim, although I think it was pre-FIDE ratings. So, either : 1. Fischer was talking nonsense or 2. Fischer was talking about blitz chess or 3. Fischer meant the top American woman player at the time. He did beat Hans Ree (then an IM, now GM) giving him knight odds in blitz in at least one game, so 2. would be my guess.

With your newer proposal a Knight Odds and the IM not being able to castle, I predict the score 2.5 to 3.5 for either side, since I can NOT surely know who will end up winning this Match Komodo or IM Andras Toth. For sure this would be an interesting match. And going back to If Carlsen wants to play a fair match against the top female player, even a pawn odds would be enough compensation for the female to beat Carlsen.

Well the knight for castling odds was intended for a GM, not an IM. According to the engines it's just about half a pawn less than knight odds, but for a human player the need to work out how to get the king to safety while developing, without castling, should make it a bit harder than that. As for Carlsen vs. Hou Yifan at pawn odds, it all depends on color, time, and the pawn. At the 15' + 10" we are talking about here, I'd bet on Hou Yifan at f7 handicap, but I'd bet on Carlsen at any other pawn handicap except perhaps g7. These details matter greatly!

[Chessqueen]

Personally, I think I don't like this new idea as much, because it feels like one extra change, i.e. it's getting further and further from regular chess.

Honestly it is not like getting further and further away from chess, But if Carlsen had offered just like Bobby Fischer said that he could give a Knight odds to any female World Champion, but of course nowadays we have stronger female players and Carlsen will lose horribly. But the point is if Fischer and the female world champion had played back then everything would have been acceptable, but because it is an engine like Komodo you and many other can NOT accept it. What we are dealing here is the fact that Komodo has the same advantage as being way way much stronger than an IM Like Andras Toth as Fischer did against any female back then.

Of course removing Black castling rights plus taking away a White Knight (the "new idea") is further away from regular chess than just taking away the White Knight. You've made two changes instead of just one of them. That's just stating an obvious fact. It's got nothing to do with computer engines, nothing to do with females. It's just counting the number of changes.

This might be the reason why it is necessary to take away IM Andras Toth Castling right. As you can see this practice game IM Andras Toth playing with the Knight removed without him having to give his castling right was able to beat Komodo in this practice game. Of course we do Not know how powerful his Laptop or PC is, Nor Komodo did NOT have the special comtemp settings either. But IM Andras Toth has an advantage, which is he already saw how GM Smerdon beat Komodo and which Opening GM Smerdon used, therefore having the advantage of knowing those Openings, Komodo has to have the some compensation besides giving IM Toth Rated 2377+ a Free Knight. But with the extra Knowledge that GM Smerdon gave him of how to beat Komodo IM Andras could be considered to be close to 2445+ of knowing how to beat Komodo.

[lkaufman]

Personally, I think I don't like this new idea as much, because it feels like one extra change, i.e. it's getting further and further from regular chess.

Honestly it is not like getting further and further away from chess, But if Carlsen had offered just like Bobby Fischer said that he could give a Knight odds to any female World Champion, but of course nowadays we have stronger female players and Carlsen will lose horribly. But the point is if Fischer and the female world champion had played back then everything would have been acceptable, but because it is an engine like Komodo you and many other can NOT accept it. What we are dealing here is the fact that Komodo has the same advantage as being way way much stronger than an IM Like Andras Toth as Fischer did against any female back then.

Of course removing Black castling rights plus taking away a White Knight (the "new idea") is further away from regular chess than just taking away the White Knight. You've made two changes instead of just one of them. That's just stating an obvious fact. It's got nothing to do with computer engines, nothing to do with females. It's just counting the number of changes.

This might be the reason why it is necessary to take away IM Andras Toth Castling right. As you can see this practice game IM Andras Toth playing with the Knight removed without him having to give his castling right was able to beat Komodo in this practice game. Of course we do Not know how powerful his Laptop or PC is, Nor Komodo did NOT have the special comtemp settings either. But IM Andras Toth has an advantage, which is he already saw how GM Smerdon beat Komodo and which Opening GM Smerdon used, therefore having the advantage of knowing those Openings, Komodo has to have the some compensation besides giving IM Toth Rated 2377+ a Free Knight. But with the extra Knowledge that GM Smerdon gave him of how to beat Komodo IM Andras could be considered to be close to 2445+ of knowing how to beat Komodo.

This was a pre-match show, so he did not yet have the benefit of knowing how Smerdon would play. But he was playing Komodo 11, probably with default Contempt, on a laptop, so it doesn't tell us too much. Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

[Chessqueen]

Personally, I think I don't like this new idea as much, because it feels like one extra change, i.e. it's getting further and further from regular chess.

Honestly it is not like getting further and further away from chess, But if Carlsen had offered just like Bobby Fischer said that he could give a Knight odds to any female World Champion, but of course nowadays we have stronger female players and Carlsen will lose horribly. But the point is if Fischer and the female world champion had played back then everything would have been acceptable, but because it is an engine like Komodo you and many other can NOT accept it. What we are dealing here is the fact that Komodo has the same advantage as being way way much stronger than an IM Like Andras Toth as Fischer did against any female back then.

Of course removing Black castling rights plus taking away a White Knight (the "new idea") is further away from regular chess than just taking away the White Knight. You've made two changes instead of just one of them. That's just stating an obvious fact. It's got nothing to do with computer engines, nothing to do with females. It's just counting the number of changes.

This might be the reason why it is necessary to take away IM Andras Toth Castling right. As you can see this practice game IM Andras Toth playing with the Knight removed without him having to give his castling right was able to beat Komodo in this practice game. Of course we do Not know how powerful his Laptop or PC is, Nor Komodo did NOT have the special comtemp settings either. But IM Andras Toth has an advantage, which is he already saw how GM Smerdon beat Komodo and which Opening GM Smerdon used, therefore having the advantage of knowing those Openings, Komodo has to have the some compensation besides giving IM Toth Rated 2377+ a Free Knight. But with the extra Knowledge that GM Smerdon gave him of how to beat Komodo IM Andras could be considered to be close to 2445+ of knowing how to beat Komodo.

This was a pre-match show, so he did not yet have the benefit of knowing how Smerdon would play. But he was playing Komodo 11, probably with default Contempt, on a laptop, so it doesn't tell us too much. Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

I know that this was a pre-match and that he used Komodo 11 and probably a computer that could be twice or three times slower than the one that you have with default Comptempt. So lets estimate that between Komodo 11 and your latest Komodo version, plus your comtempt settings and the difference of computer systems, plus not being able to Castle, and also minus the extra knowledge of using GM Smerdon Opening repertoires, how much difference would all that make after your estimate all that?

PS: I would say that after you take all that into consideration the Match would be very even and could go 2.5 to 3.5 in either side. Of course he can get Komodo 13.3 and get a computer borrow a computer twice or three times faster and practice playing without castling and look at the recommendations of GM Kramnik of how to play more effectively without castling:roll:

[jp]

Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

Larry, what about just giving odds of three pawns, which gives Komodo much better chances, though in material terms it's similar? I don't know which pawns; maybe both rook pawns and queen pawn. If the GM makes it to the endgame alive, he can win, but before then, he risks getting mated. I'm not sure Black actually needs to castle (even practically) when he has an extra piece.

[lkaufman]

Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

Larry, what about just giving odds of three pawns, which gives Komodo much better chances, though in material terms it's similar? I don't know which pawns; maybe both rook pawns and queen pawn. If the GM makes it to the endgame alive, he can win, but before then, he risks getting mated. I'm not sure Black actually needs to castle (even practically) when he has an extra piece.

Three pawns is about the same as knight for pawn materially, since a knight is worth about 4 pawns in the opening. But removing three pawns distorts the game much more than removing a knight and one pawn. Rook pawns are only worth about half a pawn in the opening position due partly to the immediate activity of the rook, while "f" and "g" are worth more than one pawn. Removing 3 out of the 4 b,c,d,and e pawns is certainly possible, but it feels less like a normal chess game to me than knight for b,c,d, or e pawn. As for knight for castling, of course Black does not "need" to castle with an extra piece, but being unable to do so makes winning a lot harder. Just for example, the French isn't quite so wonderful for Black, because if White exchanges on d5, the open file gives some chances, whereas normally it just leads to a likely rook exchange. Probably knight for pawn is a bit harder for the human than knight for castling (or knight odds at FRC), but I think that all of these options would have produced a close match with Smerdon. A normal IM would probably lose with these conditions. Note that the 3970x computer used for this match is probably about six times faster (effective speed, with 32 fast cores) than a typical quad laptop, although I don't know what Toth used in his demo game.

[Chessqueen]

Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

Larry, what about just giving odds of three pawns, which gives Komodo much better chances, though in material terms it's similar? I don't know which pawns; maybe both rook pawns and queen pawn. If the GM makes it to the endgame alive, he can win, but before then, he risks getting mated. I'm not sure Black actually needs to castle (even practically) when he has an extra piece.

Three pawns is about the same as knight for pawn materially, since a knight is worth about 4 pawns in the opening. But removing three pawns distorts the game much more than removing a knight and one pawn. Rook pawns are only worth about half a pawn in the opening position due partly to the immediate activity of the rook, while "f" and "g" are worth more than one pawn. Removing 3 out of the 4 b,c,d,and e pawns is certainly possible, but it feels less like a normal chess game to me than knight for b,c,d, or e pawn. As for knight for castling, of course Black does not "need" to castle with an extra piece, but being unable to do so makes winning a lot harder. Just for example, the French isn't quite so wonderful for Black, because if White exchanges on d5, the open file gives some chances, whereas normally it just leads to a likely rook exchange. Probably knight for pawn is a bit harder for the human than knight for castling (or knight odds at FRC), but I think that all of these options would have produced a close match with Smerdon. A normal IM would probably lose with these conditions. Note that the 3970x computer used for this match is probably about six times faster (effective speed, with 32 fast cores) than a typical quad laptop, although I don't know what Toth used in his demo game.

Larry I know that your peak rating was back in 2011 with a Fide rating of 2411, but how do you think your chances are now to take a Knight odds with No Castling, using your system. Probably you are closer to a Fide rating of 2200, but we understand that you are getting older and older.

[jp]

... but we understand that you are getting older and older.

I'm sure Larry will be thrilled to be reminded of passing time.

[lkaufman]

Clearly Komodo needs some compensation for the knight to have a decent chance against a GM or strong IM, either a pawn or no castling for the opponent, or chess 960 to defeat routine play.

Larry, what about just giving odds of three pawns, which gives Komodo much better chances, though in material terms it's similar? I don't know which pawns; maybe both rook pawns and queen pawn. If the GM makes it to the endgame alive, he can win, but before then, he risks getting mated. I'm not sure Black actually needs to castle (even practically) when he has an extra piece.

Three pawns is about the same as knight for pawn materially, since a knight is worth about 4 pawns in the opening. But removing three pawns distorts the game much more than removing a knight and one pawn. Rook pawns are only worth about half a pawn in the opening position due partly to the immediate activity of the rook, while "f" and "g" are worth more than one pawn. Removing 3 out of the 4 b,c,d,and e pawns is certainly possible, but it feels less like a normal chess game to me than knight for b,c,d, or e pawn. As for knight for castling, of course Black does not "need" to castle with an extra piece, but being unable to do so makes winning a lot harder. Just for example, the French isn't quite so wonderful for Black, because if White exchanges on d5, the open file gives some chances, whereas normally it just leads to a likely rook exchange. Probably knight for pawn is a bit harder for the human than knight for castling (or knight odds at FRC), but I think that all of these options would have produced a close match with Smerdon. A normal IM would probably lose with these conditions. Note that the 3970x computer used for this match is probably about six times faster (effective speed, with 32 fast cores) than a typical quad laptop, although I don't know what Toth used in his demo game.

Larry I know that your peak rating was back in 2011 with a Fide rating of 2411, but how do you think your chances are now to take a Knight odds with No Castling, using your system. Probably you are closer to a Fide rating of 2200, but we understand that you are getting older and older.

Actually my peak FIDE rating was 2445 back in the '80s, and according to Chessmetrics I was World number 102 around the beginning of 1981. So although I didn't get the GM title until 2008, my best year was 1980 and I was playing well enough then to have earned the GM title if I maintained that level and played internationally. But I had another career then. When I actually got the title by winning the World Senior, I was no longer really GM level, but strong enough to beat older GMs and win the title. Now I'm pretty weak at blitz, especially on the computer (partly due to vision problems), but it seems that I can still play fairly well at 15' + 10", based on my 4.5 to 1.5 result vs. Komodo at knight odds. But if I have to forfeit castling (or remove a nonedge pawn) I think I'll lose more than I win, with some draws. I'll probably try it when I have a bit more time. By the way, if you know anyone who is is NOT getting older, please tell me their secret!