Komodo Dragon is Kicking Ass in TCEC

[Krzysztof Grzelak]

Completely abandon the opening book in TCEC. Another thing is that Komodo Dragon is a weak engine. Not worth buying. Another thing is that TCEC gets boring. There are the same chess engines in the final almost all the time.

[Cornfed]

Oh please, no...don't make it a 'war of differing opening books'.

I agree, but computer chess started with opening books as a major part to the engine package.

And TCEC solution is clearly imperfect. And will always in its current state favor the more tactical engines.

When I started testing in computer chess around 1980. You could not separate the opening book, from the core engine.

Your are correct and that is the way it should be a complete package, even thought Stockfish NNUE, LCZero, Komodo Dragon and Maybe Stoofvless will still be in the same position as there are ahead of the other 4 engines

TCEC's choices may not be 'perfect'...but it's better than a 'wild west' solution of hired opening books. No, if the 'theoretical equality' of unbalanced openings/defenses played by each engine from each side leans 'too far' toward certain engines...simply pressure TCEC with reasoned argument to include more balanced positions to start from or even more 'suspected' options for White (to allow the possibility for more Black wins).

But God no...not different opening books. Only each engine supplying their own hardware would be worse.

What are you talking about! The result with TCEC is pure wild west opening books. Chess openings is not played in a vacuum. No interest or care is taking with TCEC. As stated by TCEC itself. TCEC only concern is making artificial wins. For the purpose of views. Who is better then the programmer themselves to make the book. And have the best interest of their labor of love.

You only partially quote me...which is really the same as misquoting me.

I said "...but it's better than a 'wild west' solution of hired opening books." Words matter.
If each engines gets to use their own opening book...it largely becomes a battle of whichever engine has the better (or hired someone to make) the better opening book..and it creates 'holes' for others to exploit.

No, the only real test of a group of engines is to have THAT part of things remain a level playing field. Ideally it would be quiet a bunch of varied starting positions. Some (I think rightly) clamor that too many 'weak' black defenses are chosen. Yes...but even that is not so bad because everyone has to defend them. If one engine CAN defend a weak defense while another CANNOT...that does matter. I would like to see more games and more of those be more level defenses...but with such a time control and so many engines, you have to make some compromises...and still keep it interesting. DRAW/DRAW/DRAW/DRAW...is not exactly interesting for the most part.

[Jouni]

What just now Lc0 is leading! What's happening? Definitely rigged openings .

[Chessqueen]

What just now Lc0 is leading! What's happening? Definitely rigged openings .

Yes I agree, but every engine has a chance to play White and the reverse side, so at the end the opening does NOT matter, except that inferior program like rofChade get a chance to beat superior program like Komodo Dragon and even LCZero or Stockfish , which would have neve happened if every program use their own opening, even if it is a short 4 or 5 moves opening. At thing point I do NOT believe that Stockfish NNUE or LCZero will let Komodo catch them with only 4 more game for each engine to play. At this point they should just let the 4 programs that are at the top to play with their own openings, or at the end of this to include 80 more games with only the top 4 programs, playing with their own openings
https://tcec-chess.com/live.html

[Chessqueen]

What just now Lc0 is leading! What's happening? Definitely rigged openings .

Yes I agree, but every engine has a chance to play White and the reverse side, so at the end the opening does NOT matter, except that inferior program like rofChade get a chance to beat superior program like Komodo Dragon and even LCZero or Stockfish , which would have never happened if every program use their own opening, even if it is a short 4 or 5 moves opening. At this point I do NOT believe that Stockfish NNUE or LCZero will let Komodo catch them with only 4 more game for each engine to play. At this point they should just let the 4 programs that are at the top to play with their own openings, or at the end of this to include 80 more games with only the top 4 programs, playing with their own openings
https://tcec-chess.com/live.html

Sorry I counted wrong, each engine still has 8 more games to play, and based on what I see Komodo Dragon with stupid Openings from the TCEC Team, Not from Larry Kaufman Opening book, designed specifically for Komodo Dragon will end up in 3rd Place. My 2 cents is that if TCEC really wants to find out which is the best engine they should test each engine with their own Opening which is part of the package. This would be the same as going back to 1972 when Bobby Fischer played vs Spassky, if Bobby was given a stupid opening to play vs Spassky, an Opening that Bobby did NOT prepared, he would have done terribly against Spassky, or any other World Champion that did NOT used their own prepared Opening:

[Robert Flesher]

Completely abandon the opening book in TCEC. Another thing is that Komodo Dragon is a weak engine. Not worth buying. Another thing is that TCEC gets boring. There are the same chess engines in the final almost all the time.

Good thing I am not in charge, as your ass would be banned purely on stupidity!

[Chessqueen]

Completely abandon the opening book in TCEC. Another thing is that Komodo Dragon is a weak engine. Not worth buying. Another thing is that TCEC gets boring. There are the same chess engines in the final almost all the time.

Good thing I am not in charge, as your ass would be banned purely on stupidity!

As people told you here before, if there is NO opening Books, LCZero, Alliestein, and most NNUE or NN will choose the same openings and it will be very boring to watch, You are completely wrong and illogical Komodo Dragon is NOT weak, it is considered the 3rd strongest engine at the moment ! . 3rd TCEC is NOT boring to watch, and the reason why the same engines are always in the final almost all the time, it is simple to answer and you should know better, it is because they are the best engines, just like GM Carlsen, MVL, GM Ling Diren, Caruana, and Nakamura always end up playing in the final. Did you guess WHY ? NOT because they are the worse player in the WORLD

Note: Finally, you are NOT in Charge, obviously because you are very illogical

[dkappe]

Good thing I am not in charge, as your ass would be banned purely on stupidity!

Are you always this chippy?

[Chessqueen]

Good thing I am not in charge, as your ass would be banned purely on stupidity!

Are you always this chippy?

Finally somebody has to put you in your place

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi there,

Komodo have all the time the endgame advantage to Stockfish from around 20 Elo points.
With NNUE the advantage will be higher.

Stockfish have all the time problems with to many fast draw games vs. weaker engines.

With longer time controls and many opponents we have the following situation:

Stronger endgame with Neural Network (Dragon by Komodo) vs. stronger and more aggressive in mid-games, better tactics with many pieces on board but with more draws vs. weaker engines (Stockfish).

Very interesting constellation!
All that can be see in FCP Toruney-2021.

To say Komodo is on three with statistic unrelevant tourneys like TCEC, is not right.
Possible that Dragon by Komodo is on place 1.

Interesting is the situation around Lc0.
Lc0 with all the holes in tactical play with many pieces on board is very very strong in transposition into endgames and endgame. NNUE is most interesting for late mid-game, transposition into endgame. Here I am not sure, but I believe the advantages from Lc0 are not bigger as from Stockfish or Komodo with Neural Network.

Fact is ... maybe Komodo is on place one in the world if you test it vs. many opponents.
But the more interesting style of chess ... comes from Stockfish without any doubt.

Now the question:
You have the chance for one program if you have to go on the isle / island.
You have a computer and a chessboard and one program only is allowed.

Komodo or Stockfish?
And the answere is Wasp.
Very logical decision I think!



Best
Frank