My conclusion after playing Vs Top Engines with Rook Odds

[Chessqueen]

Long time ago I thought that Carlsen could give a Roof Odds to a 2000 rated player, but after testing myself against Stockfish 13. I am convinced that Carlsen can NOT give a Rook Odds to a 2000 rated player neither a Knight Odds to a 2300 player. I know that back in the time of Morphy he used to give Odds to lower rated players and beat them, but if Carlsen ever accept to give Rook Odds to a 2000 rated player I will put my money on the lower rated player.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.06.08"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_21052415_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[ECO "C40"]
[Opening "Open Game"]
[Time "09:01:25"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Variation "1.e4 e5"]
[WhiteElo "3500"]
[TimeControl "0+45"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. dxc6 Nxc6 6. Nf3 Bf5 7. O-O
e6 8. d4 Bd6 9. Bb3 O-O 10. h3 Na5 11. Nbd2 Rc8 12. c3 Nxb3 13. axb3 b5 14.
Nh4 Bd3 15. Re1 a5 16. Nhf3 Rc7 17. Ne5 Bxe5 18. dxe5 Nd7 19. Nf3 Nc5 20.
Be3 Qd5 21. Nd4 b4 22. c4 Qd7 23. Nb5 Rc6 24. Nd6 Bg6 25. Bxc5 Rxc5 26. Qd4
Qc7 27. Qe3 Ra8 28. Rd1 Rd8 29. Kh2 Qb6 30. h4 Rc6 31. c5 Qc7 32. Rc1 h5
33. Qd4 Ra6 34. Qf4 Qc6 35. Qc4 Rb8 36. Ra1 Ra7 37. Kg3 Rba8 38. Kh3 Rc7
39. Rc1 Bf5+ 40. Kh2 Rb8 41. Qd4 Rd8 42. Kg3 Rdd7 43. Qc4 Bh7 44. f3 Bg6
45. Qd4 Rd8 46. Kf2 Rf8 47. Kg3 Rb8 48. Kf4 Rd8 49. Kg3 Qa6 50. Qe3 Rf8 51.
Ra1 Rb8 52. Rc1 Qc6 53. Qd4 Kf8 54. f4 Rd8 55. Qd1 Rdd7 56. Kf2 Kg8 57. Qd4
Be4 58. Qxe4 Rxd6 59. exd6 Qxe4 60. dxc7 Qxf4+ 61. Ke2 Qxc7 62. c6 Qe5+ 63.
Kd1 Qd5+ 64. Ke1 Qe4+ 65. Kd1 Qd3+ 66. Ke1 Qe3+ 67. Kd1 Qxb3+ 68. Rc2 Qd3+
69. Kc1 Qe3+ 70. Kd1 Qg1+ 71. Kd2 Qxg2+ 72. Kd1 Qg4+ 73. Kd2 Qf4+ 74. Kd3
b3 75. Rc3 Qc7 76. Rxb3 Qd6+ 77. Ke2 Qxc6 78. Kd2 Qc4 79. Rb8+ Kh7 80. Rd8
{White resigns} *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.

[Uri Blass]

I think that it is dependent on the player.

I believe that It is possible to give rook odd and win even against 2300 player in case that the 2300 player is not a human but an engine unless programmers start to improve chess engines to make it impossible.

I showed earlier a game when stupid fruit2.2.1 lost against stockfish inspite getting rook odds and I am sure fruit is at GM level.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77325

[Chessqueen]

I think that it is dependent on the player.

I believe that It is possible to give rook odd and win even against 2300 player in case that the 2300 player is not a human but an engine unless programmers start to improve chess engines to make it impossible.

I showed earlier a game when stupid fruit2.2.1 lost against stockfish inspite getting rook odds and I am sure fruit is at GM level.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77325

I suppose that Fruit 2.2.1 is NOT programmed to trade in every opportunity it has when it is ahead, since the more pieces you trade when you are ahead the less chances the higher rated program or human has in winning or coming out of the deficit, and at the very end it required less effort to win the endgame, since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM, most of the advantage is in the middlegame via strategic, tactics and pawn movement or placement

[Chessqueen]

It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.

https://lichess.org/coach/imandrastoth

IM Andras Toth has some interesting opening ideas worth studying it, and I will invest some times learning it. It seems that he likes to lock the position, in some of these openings, but if he has to win in Armageddon, he will have to trade pieces with Komodo Dragon2 MCTS
https://www.chessable.com/discussion/th ... ayer/9135/
A N D ---- T H E S E---- G A M E S
https://www.chess.com/member/andras-toth

[Spliffjiffer]

since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:

[Chessqueen]

since the knowledge of the endgame it NOT much greater between a 2000 rated player and a GM

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:

It all depends how you were trained since for the first 4 months I was intensely trained on the endgame, then my trainer started to trained me on tactics and told me to purchase different tactical books, like Chess Tactisc from scratch by Martin Weteschnik just to mention one of them School of Future Champions by Dvoretsky and Yusupov and Attack and defense by Jacob Aagaard. But not everybody goes that route, some people study tactics, strategy and pawn structure before they learn the endgame well.

[Spliffjiffer]

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:

my bad: my comment "Carlsen WOULD!" is dubious...just entered the exact moveorder and noticed that Liem could have called the arbiter and could have reclaimed a draw by 50-move-rule...
1st: "analyse" and 2nd: comment after that....will i ever learn this
anyway, the position is objectively lost after this:
[d]8/1p2kp2/1pb1p1p1/2r1P2p/5P1P/P1RBK1P1/1P6/8 w - - 0 1
1.Rb3?! b5?? 2.Rc3!+-

sry for that!

[Chessqueen]

tough statement...would an FM win this vs an engine of our days ? ...Carlsen WOULD!:

my bad: my comment "Carlsen WOULD!" is dubious...just entered the exact moveorder and noticed that Liem could have called the arbiter and could have reclaimed a draw by 50-move-rule...
1st: "analyse" and 2nd: comment after that....will i ever learn this
anyway, the position is objectively lost after this:
[d]8/1p2kp2/1pb1p1p1/2r1P2p/5P1P/P1RBK1P1/1P6/8 w - - 0 1
1.Rb3?! b5?? 2.Rc3!+-

sorry for that!

Top GM Not always play perfect endings ==>

[Chessqueen]

It all depends on time limit, but at standard Rapid (15' + 10"), somewhere around 2000 elo is probably enough to win a rook odds match from any engine. Looks like our next official human match will be knight odds (with Armageddon rule) vs. IM Andras Toth (2377 FIDE, age 40) June 19 and 20. We have never won a (Rapid) match at knight odds from anyone over 2300 FIDE so this will be a challenge.

Hopefully Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS perform better then Komodo MCTS back in April of 2020 Practice Games Vs IM Andras Toth ==>