Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb »

Frank Quisinsky wrote:Hi,

think so, should be clear (Sjeng and ELO-Monster).

Nice that you have fun with the interview. A lot of work for us because all is in English. My girlfriend made the correction.

But we all have fun.
With fun each work will be better.

Best
Frank
Thanks Frank for both of you....I haven't seen lately a professional made interview like this,next time they must pay you :wink:
Cheers,
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
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M ANSARI
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by M ANSARI »

Damir wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:Thanks for the nice interview. Seems like DS 4 will be very interesting ... more than 100 ELO +.
All Engines are updating, except Rybka 4. I can not wait for Rybka Cluster Server Edition... :lol: :lol:
Rybka 4 will come quite soon :)
yanquis1972
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by yanquis1972 »

is that an 'insider info' smiley?

gawd i hope so. :D
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Watchman
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Watchman »

Earlier today, my entire post was deleted by the CCC Mods. Apparently I can post "this much" i.e. the below paragraphs.

My post in its entirety at Hiarcs Forum

===============================================

I really hate to rain on Frank's interview, but I must take exception to the follow paragraph in the interview with Gian:

"When Sjeng made a great performance regardless, a jealous competitor then complained that Deep Sjeng should be "promoted" to the full professionals category, requiring a huge entry fee. The ICGA granted this request (without as much as informing me until more than a month afterwards when it was way too late!) with the result that it is now no longer affordable for me to attend the World Championships. The behaviour of this "collegue" (which I now understand is very much the wrong word) and the way the ICGA handled it has disappointed me greatly and will not be forgotten soon."

It is my understanding the ICGA uses 3 types of definitions to determine what entry fee is charged a competitor in the World Championships.

"The definitions are the same as used in the past. They read as follows."

“Amateur: programmers who have no commercial interest in their program, and are not professional game programmers. Applications for amateur classification must supply information to justify their claim."

“Semi-professional: Any program submitted by an employee or associate from a games-programming company. The program’s name must not be derived from or similar to a commercial product."

“Professional: A program whose name is the same as or derived from a commercial product.”

Now I am not sure about the rest of you, but to a peon like me, Sjeng would currently fit squarely within the "Professional" definition. Apparently when brought to it's attention, the ICGA ruled this way (last year).

What amazes me (it really should not) is how Gian blames "the behaviour of (his) colleague" for him having to pay the correct entry fee, and faults the ICGA how they handled it! Apparently Gian misled the ICGA for 2 years in a row, claiming that Sjeng was an “Amateur” (even though Sjeng was a commercial product) and therefore did not pay the correct fee. (Please correct me if I am wrong Gian, I do pray that I am).
Rob O. / Watchman
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto »

Rob, regardless of what the rules say, the ICGA has allowed exemptions for programmers that are selling their programs under the name they play with, but which are not professional games programmers (which the ICGA rules you just quoted do refer to).

They allowed it at least for the following programs: Sjeng, Gromit, ParSOS, Gandalf, Goliath, Diep, Ikarus, The Crazy Bishop and Loop.

Alexander Naumov posted here at some point that Naum would not participate in the WCCC because by strict application of the rules, he could not afford to do so. If you dig up the post (I couldn't find it easily, but it should be there), you will see that I told him to ask about entering as an amateur too.

So, there was clearly no "misleading". Because of what happened next, it can certainly not have been a secret what Sjeng' status was:

The fine compromise for all sides involved lasted until in Pamplona a certain professional participant apparently disliked this extra competition enough that he complained (in my absence) that Deep Sjeng should no longer be allowed an exemption. He repeated this demand immediately after losing his game to me. The ICGA agreed with this (even though I had told David Levy in advance that this would mean that I could no longer play). I found it a questionable decision, particularly since it was taken without giving me a chance to make my argument, but that's not the issue here.

You should know that I did not register Deep Sjeng to take part in the WCCC, largely due to the 8-core rule and my inability to attend. Deep Sjeng entered the tournament, after it was invited Sunday night to enter to make the number of participants even.

Now, the ICGA is arguing that, despite inviting me, the decision to stop the exemption, taken at the players meeting in my absence and without communicating it to me until more than a month after the tournament, means that I should pay them up for the privilege of being invited.

That makes no sense whatsoever, and I will refuse to do so.
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:Rob, regardless of what the rules say, the ICGA has allowed exemptions for programmers that are selling their programs under the name they play with, but which are not professional games programmers (which the ICGA rules you just quoted do refer to).

They allowed it at least for the following programs: Sjeng, Gromit, ParSOS, Gandalf, Goliath, Diep, Ikarus, The Crazy Bishop and Loop.

Alexander Naumov posted here at some point that Naum would not participate in the WCCC because by strict application of the rules, he could not afford to do so. If you dig up the post (I couldn't find it easily, but it should be there), you will see that I told him to ask about entering as an amateur too.

So, there was clearly no "misleading". Because of what happened next, it can certainly not have been a secret what Sjeng' status was:

The fine compromise for all sides involved lasted until in Pamplona a certain professional participant apparently disliked this extra competition enough that he complained (in my absence) that Deep Sjeng should no longer be allowed an exemption. He repeated this demand immediately after losing his game to me. The ICGA agreed with this (even though I had told David Levy in advance that this would mean that I could no longer play). I found it a questionable decision, particularly since it was taken without giving me a chance to make my argument, but that's not the issue here.

You should know that I did not register Deep Sjeng to take part in the WCCC, largely due to the 8-core rule and my inability to attend. Deep Sjeng entered the tournament, after it was invited Sunday night to enter to make the number of participants even.

Now, the ICGA is arguing that, despite inviting me, the decision to stop the exemption, taken at the players meeting in my absence and without communicating it to me until more than a month after the tournament, means that I should pay them up for the privilege of being invited.

That makes no sense whatsoever, and I will refuse to do so.
It was agreed at the players meeting BEFORE the tournament started in Pamplona that Sjeng should pay the Professional entry fee. It was discussed also at that meeting that Sjeng should be invited to make up the numbers at that point there was no operator. I suggested Johan should do this and that was agreed it was also agreed that no operator fee would be charged.

When was the exemption made for you in China? You decided to see what you could get away with there and entered as an amateur. I am pretty sure that at the previous WCCC in Amsterdam that Sjeng was still an amateur program? It is your responsibility to fill in the entry form honestly not that of the ICGA to presume some programmers will be dishonest.

Why should Shredder, Hiarcs, Junior and Rybka pay 500 Euros to play and you 25?

There is a debate to be had about the fee structure at ICGA but the rules were clear.
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Sedat Canbaz »

Frank Quisinsky wrote:Hi there,

now the interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto (programmer of Sjeng) is available.

The interview is very long and in English language.

SCHACHWELT
http://www.schach-welt.de/index.php?opt ... Itemid=121

Thanks Gian-Carlo for your time.
I had a lot of fun!

Best
Frank

Hello Frank !

Many thanks...your interviews provide a lot of valuable information.

Regards,
Sedat
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto »

Harvey Williamson wrote: It was agreed at the players meeting BEFORE the tournament started in Pamplona that Sjeng should pay the Professional entry fee. It was discussed also at that meeting that Sjeng should be invited to make up the numbers at that point there was no operator. I suggested Johan should do this and that was agreed it was also agreed that no operator fee would be charged.
That is correct and confirms my point. Note:

1) At no point was I informed of this decision at the players meeting. In fact, I was only told this approximately a month after the tournament had ended, despite it obviously being pretty important to know for me. This is contrary to the decision that your team would be allowed to use 16 cores, which I was informed of immediately.

2) Given that you just confirmed I did not enter myself but was invited, this clearly cannot be aligned with asking me to pay a fee (that I didn't agree to pay and never would have, given that I even informed the ICGA of that restriction).
It is your responsibility to fill in the entry form honestly not that of the ICGA to presume some programmers will be dishonest.
I did fill out the form honestly: I am not a "employee or associate from a games-programming company". I'm sure I'm not the only one who interpreted it like that, unless you want to claim the authors of Gromit, ParSOS, Gandalf, Goliath, Diep, Ikarus, The Crazy Bishop and Loop were also intentionally misleading the ICGA. I think I can at most be faulted for misinterpreting the rules based on what I saw happen in past tournaments. From the feedback I got, the ICGA doesn't blame me for that, either.

Given that I have had discussion about my status with ICGA officials in the past, I was surprised to see the claim now they had no idea I was selling my program. Must have been quite some miscommunication there.

After your complaint, they've now reversed (or clarified, as they put it) this policy and stated that they would no longer allow any of the above programs to enter like that. It's worth pondering over the consequences of that for a while.
Why should Shredder, Hiarcs, Junior and Rybka pay 500 Euros to play and you 25?
Your counting is mistaken: if we strictly follow the rules, entering a tournament with Leela and Deep Sjeng would cost me at least 2500 Euro (500 x 2 + 500 x 2 + 500), not 500 Euro, just in entry fees. I'm not willing to pay that to enter, so the condition for me for entering is not having to pay that.

And why do you mention 500 Euro for Hiarcs anyway, given that you have an absentee programmer doubling the fees?

I think no amateur (in the sensible defintion, not the ICGA one) who happens to sell his program should have to bear such a burden, but maybe the case can be made for full-time professionals making a living of it. But actually, last time I asked around, ChessBase was the one paying all those fees which is also why nobody complains. Is that not the case for you?
My post in its entirety at Hiarcs Forum
I see that someone who proclaims to be a "Hiarcs Team Member" has reverted to posting pure slander and libel in your official forum. Maybe it's a good idea to ponder over the consequences of that too.
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: It was agreed at the players meeting BEFORE the tournament started in Pamplona that Sjeng should pay the Professional entry fee. It was discussed also at that meeting that Sjeng should be invited to make up the numbers at that point there was no operator. I suggested Johan should do this and that was agreed it was also agreed that no operator fee would be charged.
That is correct and confirms my point. Note:
1) At no point was I informed of this decision at the players meeting. In fact, I was only told this approximately a month after the tournament had ended, despite it obviously being pretty important to know for me. This is contrary to the decision that your team would be allowed to use 16 cores, which I was informed of immediately.
Surely your operator should have informed you of this decision? The announcement allowing Hyperthreading was made several weeks before the tournament started.
2) Given that you just confirmed I did not enter myself but was invited, this clearly cannot be aligned with asking me to pay a fee (that I didn't agree to pay and never would have, given that I even informed the ICGA of that restriction).
Again surely your operator should have informed you.
It is your responsibility to fill in the entry form honestly not that of the ICGA to presume some programmers will be dishonest.
I did fill out the form honestly: I am not a "employee or associate from a games-programming company". I'm sure I'm not the only one who interpreted it like that, unless you want to claim the authors of Gromit, ParSOS, Gandalf, Goliath, Diep, Ikarus, The Crazy Bishop and Loop were also intentionally misleading the ICGA. I think I can at most be faulted for misinterpreting the rules based on what I saw happen in past tournaments. From the feedback I got, the ICGA doesn't blame me for that, either.
I agree the semi pro definition that you quote does not apply to you. I still do not see how you think it was honest to apply the amateur description to yourself in China. If you wanted a special case to be made for you you should have asked.
Given that I have had discussion about my status with ICGA officials in the past, I was surprised to see the claim now they had no idea I was selling my program. Must have been quite some miscommunication there.


You mean you had these discussions before you were selling Sjeng? Even if not unless they said you could enter as an amateur in China I don't see that you have any case.
After your complaint, they've now reversed (or clarified, as they put it) this policy and stated that they would no longer allow any of the above programs to enter like that. It's worth pondering over the consequences of that for a while.
I think the important point is that this should be discussed before filling out the entry form dishonestly.
Why should Shredder, Hiarcs, Junior and Rybka pay 500 Euros to play and you 25?
Your counting is mistaken: if we strictly follow the rules, entering a tournament with Leela and Deep Sjeng would cost me at least 2500 Euro (500 x 2 + 500 x 2 + 500), not 500 Euro, just in entry fees. I'm not willing to pay that to enter, so the condition for me for entering is not having to pay that.
My counting is correct for the Chess tournament. I agree there should be a debate about the fee structure. But it is up to the ICGA to set the rules if you do not like them do not play.
And why do you mention 500 Euro for Hiarcs anyway, given that you have an absentee programmer doubling the fees?
The 500 Euro operator fee is for when ICGA supply an operator.
I think no amateur (in the sensible defintion, not the ICGA one) who happens to sell his program should have to bear such a burden, but maybe the case can be made for full-time professionals making a living of it. But actually, last time I asked around, ChessBase was the one paying all those fees which is also why nobody complains. Is that not the case for you?
CB have never contributed towards Hiarcs fees in any tournament I have played in. Mark has paid for travel, Hotels, and entry fee. All other costs I have paid myself. I receive no financial reward from computer Chess and it has cost me personally a lot of money.
My post in its entirety at Hiarcs Forum
I see that someone who proclaims to be a "Hiarcs Team Member" has reverted to posting pure slander and libel in your official forum. Maybe it's a good idea to ponder over the consequences of that too.
Rubbish. Every word is true. Nothing had been said in public on this topic until you decided to raise it in your interview.
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Re: Interview with Gian-Carlo Pascutto available (english)

Post by Watchman »

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:Rob, regardless of what the rules say, the ICGA has allowed exemptions for programmers that are selling their programs under the name they play with, but which are not professional games programmers (which the ICGA rules you just quoted do refer to).
Knowing this... this why didn't you ask for one. I have a good guess as to why, but I have no idea what is in your heart.
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:I see that someone who proclaims to be a "Hiarcs Team Member" has reverted to posting pure slander and libel in your official forum. Maybe it's a good idea to ponder over the consequences of that too.
I should be busting my gut laughing over that if it weren't for the sadness of this situation.
Harvey Williamson wrote:Rubbish. Every word is true. Nothing had been said in public on this topic until you decided to raise it in your interview.
That's right Gian... I was very careful in my wording not speak anything slanderous. Everything in it is true. Btw, what consequences are you referring to? You are upset that I speak accurately, and now that your actions are open for all to see it embarrasses you... now you want some kind of retribution? You should have thought about that BEFORE you decided to do what you did.

Here's a nice quote for you from Tony Baretta: "If you can't do the time... don't do the crime." Certainly don't whine about it now and blame me for what you began.

Btw... I don't proclaim to be "anything." :P
Rob O. / Watchman