xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

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hgm
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by hgm »

BBauer wrote:Thank you.
Now I can view and analyse the linares games.

Multipv behavior has not changed.
From "about Xboard" I wanted to copy the version but that is not possible.
Cut and paste seams not to work for me.
How do you work with xboard?
I don't really work with XBoard. I am a Windows user, and I use WinBoard. I am not sure how copy-paste works in X-applications. It seems what is selected is automatically ready for copying to other X-applications by a middle mouse click. But it seems that modern Linux tools no longer obey this convention. (Plus, I work on a laptop, which does not even have a middle mouse button...) This gave us much trouble with XBoard before. For instance, I was not able to paste games or positions that were copied by the XBoard menu's copy commands into Gedit or FireFox. We changed that by now letting these commands by default copy to the clipboard, in stead of setting the primary selection, and added the option -pasteSelection for forcing the old behavior. Late I implemented this for the Engine-Output window as well. But this has to be programmed explicitly everywhere you want it to apply, it is not natural X-server behavior. So I can very well imagine that mere texts in dialog boxes can only be copied in obsolete X-ways, if copying of those was supported at all.

This is all a consequence of XBoard being based on the outdated Athena widget set of the X-toolkit, which might have been state of the art in 1974, but have lost much of its glamour by now. It can only be expected to improve when the Linux front-end will be entirely rewritten, porting it to a modern widget set. Arun Persaud is currently working on this, porting XBoard to the gtk+ widget set. This makes it even more unattractive to invest a lot of effort in patching up the X-toolkit front-end.

About the multi-PV behavior: I don't know which XBoard version you were using before, but the multi-PV behavior of the version patched for the "super problem" will be changed compared to that of 4.4.2. It sorts the lines of a single depth in such a way that the one with the highest score it top-most in the display. As the natural display order is to insert lines at the top, this is often the reverse order as they would appear in 4.4.2, because engines often send the line with the highest score first. (E.g. look at the Polyglot output posted by Michel.)

Of course this does not solve your main problem. I already told you that was a Polyglot issue, and it will persist as long as you keep using versions older than 1.4.50b or thereabout. I am sure 1.4.56b does it the way you want. (Which, btw, I consider the correct way for WinBoard engines. But tastes differ, and some people prefer the display to be cleared between iterations. Perhaps future Polyglots will allow you to select the behvior through a Polyglot option, so it can be set from the XBoard menus.
BBauer
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by BBauer »

My output in console mode looks a little different:
1 +76 226 20 Nf3
0 +12 226 50
2 +12 226 50 Nf3 Nf6
0 +12 226 77
2 +12 226 77 Nf3 Nf6
2 +4 226 77 Nc3 Nf6
0 +12 226 116
2 +12 226 116 Nf3 Nf6
2 +4 226 116 Nc3 Nf6
2 -24 226 116 e4 Nf6
0 +68 227 243
3 +68 227 243 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 305
3 +68 227 305 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +68 227 305 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 383
3 +68 227 383 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
3 +68 227 383 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +28 227 383 e4 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 530
3 +68 227 530 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +68 227 530 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
3 +32 227 530 d3 Nc6 Nf3
polyglot gives the following output
PolyGlot 1.4W18 by Fabien Letouzey
I think I have installed the newest version - but who knows.
Xboard still gives multipv lines which are cleared when the next depth is shown. This is not what I want.
kind regards
Bernhard
BBauer
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by BBauer »

Thank you very much.
Now it looks much better.
Thank you
Bernhard
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hgm
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by hgm »

Code: Select all

1 +76 226 20 Nf3
0 +12 226 50 
2 +12 226 50 Nf3 Nf6
0 +12 226 77 
2 +12 226 77 Nf3 Nf6
2 +4 226 77 Nc3 Nf6
0 +12 226 116 
2 +12 226 116 Nf3 Nf6
2 +4 226 116 Nc3 Nf6
2 -24 226 116 e4 Nf6
0 +68 227 243 
3 +68 227 243 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 305 
3 +68 227 305 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +68 227 305 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 383 
3 +68 227 383 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
3 +68 227 383 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +28 227 383 e4 Nf6 Nc3
0 +68 227 530 
3 +68 227 530 Nc3 Nf6 Nf3
3 +68 227 530 Nf3 Nf6 Nc3
3 +32 227 530 d3 Nc6 Nf3
From your last message I deduce that you have upgraded to a more-recent Polyglot. 8-) As you can see from the console output you posted, Polyglot 1.4w18 still inserts extra lines starting with 0 to clear the display, and sends many copies of the same line (e.g. Nf3 Nf6 Nc3 at d=3 is sent 4 times). You can see it does not even limit that to new depth, but it does it even within a single depth: for any new line the engine coughts up, it first clears the display, and then resends all the lines that it just erased. That is what was causing this neurotic dsplay behavior, but it was all intentional by the designers of Polyglot. And there still seem to be people tht prefer it that way. I guess there is no accounting for tastes.

Anyway, XBoard supports both modes. Engines can clear the display and resend the data, if they want, by interjecting the d=0 lines. Or they can present the output as a nice continuous stream of increasing depth.

Perhaps future Polyglots will have it as an options to set the mode of multi-PV display, so that the user can control it from the Engine-Settings dialogs.
bob
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by bob »

hgm wrote:
BBauer wrote:Thank you.
Now I can view and analyse the linares games.

Multipv behavior has not changed.
From "about Xboard" I wanted to copy the version but that is not possible.
Cut and paste seams not to work for me.
How do you work with xboard?
I don't really work with XBoard. I am a Windows user, and I use WinBoard. I am not sure how copy-paste works in X-applications. It seems what is selected is automatically ready for copying to other X-applications by a middle mouse click. But it seems that modern Linux tools no longer obey this convention. (Plus, I work on a laptop, which does not even have a middle mouse button...) This gave us much trouble with XBoard before. For instance, I was not able to paste games or positions that were copied by the XBoard menu's copy commands into Gedit or FireFox. We changed that by now letting these commands by default copy to the clipboard, in stead of setting the primary selection, and added the option -pasteSelection for forcing the old behavior. Late I implemented this for the Engine-Output window as well. But this has to be programmed explicitly everywhere you want it to apply, it is not natural X-server behavior. So I can very well imagine that mere texts in dialog boxes can only be copied in obsolete X-ways, if copying of those was supported at all.

This is all a consequence of XBoard being based on the outdated Athena widget set of the X-toolkit, which might have been state of the art in 1974, but have lost much of its glamour by now. It can only be expected to improve when the Linux front-end will be entirely rewritten, porting it to a modern widget set. Arun Persaud is currently working on this, porting XBoard to the gtk+ widget set. This makes it even more unattractive to invest a lot of effort in patching up the X-toolkit front-end.

About the multi-PV behavior: I don't know which XBoard version you were using before, but the multi-PV behavior of the version patched for the "super problem" will be changed compared to that of 4.4.2. It sorts the lines of a single depth in such a way that the one with the highest score it top-most in the display. As the natural display order is to insert lines at the top, this is often the reverse order as they would appear in 4.4.2, because engines often send the line with the highest score first. (E.g. look at the Polyglot output posted by Michel.)

Of course this does not solve your main problem. I already told you that was a Polyglot issue, and it will persist as long as you keep using versions older than 1.4.50b or thereabout. I am sure 1.4.56b does it the way you want. (Which, btw, I consider the correct way for WinBoard engines. But tastes differ, and some people prefer the display to be cleared between iterations. Perhaps future Polyglots will allow you to select the behvior through a Polyglot option, so it can be set from the XBoard menus.
If you really have a two-button mouse (or touchpad) pressing both buttons at the same time is treated like a middle-button click. As far as current linux not using the middle button to copy, I'm not sure what "linux" you are using. I am using Fedora 12, and the middle button has always copied what is selected. and blapped it into the new window. I do this all the time.
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hgm
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by hgm »

Wow, you are right! Pressing both buttons together works, and it does paste the the selection at the position of the mouse pointer. Had I only known that before... (I am a total Linux newbie, using Ubuntu 8.04.)
royb
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by royb »

hgm wrote:Wow, you are right! Pressing both buttons together works, and it does paste the the selection at the position of the mouse pointer. Had I only known that before... (I am a total Linux newbie, using Ubuntu 8.04.)
Sometimes a mouse with a scroll wheel on it and two buttons can be used to paste by pressing down on the scroll wheel.

I personally use this mouse:

Logitech V550 Cordless Laser Mouse for Notebooks

It has both scroll wheel (cannot paste with it) and just below the scroll wheel is a small button (not left/right mouse button) that when pressed, pastes the selected text just fine.

Roy
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hgm
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by hgm »

royb wrote:Sometimes a mouse with a scroll wheel on it and two buttons can be used to paste by pressing down on the scroll wheel.
Yes, I knew that, but this is on a laptop with just a touch pad and two buttons next to it. No wheel. (Although the Linux mouse driver apparently uses the right-most part of the touch pad as wheel, which is most of the time extremely annoying, yet, once you start to use it, after some time becomes equally annoying not to have, as is the ase when I switch back to Windows.) And it also lacks a PS/2 connector where I can plug in mouses of my desktop PCs.
BBauer
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by BBauer »

Sorry but I was not successfull.
I run xboard in analysis mode and are not able to copy the output anywhere. I can copy and paste a fen string but not the analysis.
Yeah, I know, a fool with a tool is still a fool.
your fool
Bernhard
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hgm
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Re: xboard Problem with multi pv analysis

Post by hgm »

The latest version for the master branch should support two modes of copying from the Engine-Output window. One by using Ctrl+C to put the selection in CLIPBOARD, and then Ctrl+V to paste it into the text at the position of the cursor (which I programmed explicitly, because the other method did not seem to work due to my inability to generate a middle-button-press event). The other by just selecting from the EO window, and then pressing the middle button to paste the selection at the mouse pointer.

The first method is suppressed when the option -pasteSelection is in force, however. The second method even works in the v4.4.x branch; this is how I discovered that pressing both buttons simultaneously indeed is taken for a middle-click, by copying something from the EO window to Gedit.

Note that the master branch supports a settings file, so that the settings of -pasteSelection might not be what you think it is, because it is remembered from last time, rather than set to the default.