I NEED HELP With This Question

[Matthias Gemuh]

Thanks !
My copy still needs fixing.

Got the fixed one now.

[rvida]

Just rather how most people seem to be testing it.

Does not matter in engine-engine matches.

The built-in DB contains some well known test positions which you have almost zero chance to encounter in real games.

Hello Richard,

I would be more interested in that database than the engine. I will not test the rip off engine but I would like to compare that little database with my own test set. Is there a possibility to get it in a readable format?

Thanks
Ingo

It is not possible. Transformation from FEN to hash key is irreversible and the database stores only hash keys. The best you can do is to have your positions analyzed by original and patched versions in parallel => if both give same analysis the position is not stored, if they differ the position is stored in the database.

[rvida]

As far as i know, Strelka 5.5 was released as closed source engine

so what?

So i wonder, have you looked in other chess engines too,i mean about other engines include similar database ?

No, because none of the other engines I have on my PC behave suspiciously on test suites I use.

Btw,i wonder too...how many chess programmers (exception you) are looking (coping,learning,deleting,renaming...) in the others engine.exe files work ?

More than you expect. Remember Z.Wegner, M.Watkins, R.Hyatt & co RE-ing rybka?

All this work is legal ?

The user should never take it upon himself to do this himself- w/o the author's permission. Others may say they don't agree with me- but it is just a common, sometimes unspoken, act of respect and courtesy.

It is illegal or unethical if I fix my broken car myself? If I bypass the built-in speed limiter? If I tune my car? Sure, according to your logic it is unethical if the author (car manufacturer in my example) does not give his permission. One step forward - my friend asks me to fix his car. Why should I deny if I can do it? Why do you think software is something different (especially chess engines)?

George - you enjoy testing parameter-tuned Houdinis. Don't you remember who gave the community the information about the configuration data location in the exe file and the interpretation of the values? Hint: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 253#429253. Without this info I doubt any H20s, H20z, H20barracuda, H20mya$$ would exist. Now let's talk about "act of respect and courtesy"...

[Sedat Canbaz]

As far as i know, Strelka 5.5 was released as closed source engine

so what?

So i wonder, have you looked in other chess engines too,i mean about other engines include similar database ?

No, because none of the other engines I have on my PC behave suspiciously on test suites I use.

Btw,i wonder too...how many chess programmers (exception you) are looking (coping,learning,deleting,renaming...) in the others engine.exe files work ?

More than you expect. Remember Z.Wegner, M.Watkins, R.Hyatt & co RE-ing rybka?

All this work is legal ?

The user should never take it upon himself to do this himself- w/o the author's permission. Others may say they don't agree with me- but it is just a common, sometimes unspoken, act of respect and courtesy.

It is illegal or unethical if I fix my broken car myself? If I bypass the built-in speed limiter? If I tune my car? Sure, according to your logic it is unethical if the author (car manufacturer in my example) does not give his permission. One step forward - my friend asks me to fix his car. Why should I deny if I can do it? Why do you think software is something different (especially chess engines)?

George - you enjoy testing parameter-tuned Houdinis. Don't you remember who gave the community the information about the configuration data location in the exe file and the interpretation of the values? Hint: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 253#429253. Without this info I doubt any H20s, H20z, H20barracuda, H20mya$$ would exist. Now let's talk about "act of respect and courtesy"...

Yes...I remember this issue of course
But as far as i know,they did not fix or edited Rybka exe engine file
They just tried to destroy Rybka,but without success
Maybe they are looking like Winners on signing papers,but on the real Arena-they are Losers !!

To be honest,
Rybka is one of my favorite chess engines
Really Vasik Rajlich is a GREAT master in Chess programing
Once more i'd like to mention that Rybka has a superior record (almost six years was unbeatable)

One thing more,
I never noticed a clone engine which is approx.250-300 Elo stronger than the original one

And I strongly believe in this:
-Without Rybka,many Top chess engines (Critter,Ippolit family,Stockfish,Komodo,Strelka,Houdini...) would not nearly be as strong as it is nowadays !!

About fixing cars or chess engines,
Hmm...,I respect you as a good programmer, but i think you need to ask for a permission from the real car owner,not from X different person/friend


Best,
Sedat

[IWB]

It is not possible. Transformation from FEN to hash key is irreversible and the database stores only hash keys. The best you can do is to have your positions analyzed by original and patched versions in parallel => if both give same analysis the position is not stored, if they differ the position is stored in the database.

I did not test it because my interest in the rip-off wasn't big enough, but that is an excelent idea. I will check that - but not publish any result of course

Bye
Ingo

[geots]

Gab, let me explain to you if you don't mind how this works. Or should. It is the same as an author having an engine that has an opening book built into the engine. So a generic book cannot be used with it. So the testing group cannot test it.

Why can't they test it?

If the gui is using a book it will put the engine in force and send it the book moves. When those run out the engine is on it's own but it might play a couple more moves out of its own book. Somebody might say the engine has an unfair advantage but I assume you would not agree based on your statement above :

Surely not one person is testing it with the database of moves removed, I would hope.

Best
Dan H.

Dan, with the book issue- the same generic book has to be used for both engines. I am there no longer, but if I remember correctly, with an engine having an internal book inside the exe that could not be disabled- there was no way to be sure how much of its own book it was using- or if any- how far.


But I just used that as an example. This Strelka deal really bothers me. Some are saying- and I believe Richard is one- that the use of the database is cheating. I know a couple people told me he disabled or removed the database for them so they could test it. I was floored! Who gives anyone the right to make that decision, and to remove parts of another man's engine!? If one feels the way they evidently do, DON'T TEST IT> But, by God- keep their damn hands off its internals! The more I talk, the more pissed about this I get. I see CCRL testing 5.1 and 5.5. I see other people testing 5.5 And I can get no one to tell me if anything in 5.5 has been disabled in the versions they are testing or not. No one wants to talk. Dan- this was the whole point of this post I started. Start at the top and look at the question I asked- then start reading the responses and find where my question is addressed. They have even gone so far as to call the goddam disabling a bugfix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just who in hell was this fix done by? A user who decided a bug needed fixing? I USE IT AS I RECEIVED IT, AND I DON'T SEE ANY BUGS. IMO, any testing group using a version with the database disabled without the author's permission should be SHUT DOWN.


gts

[geots]

Just rather how most people seem to be testing it.

Does not matter in engine-engine matches.

The built-in DB contains some well known test positions which you have almost zero chance to encounter in real games.

Dear Richard,

It seems, you hacked Strelka 5.5 or maybe you have permission by Jury Osipov ?!

As far as i know, Strelka 5.5 was released as closed source engine

So i wonder, have you looked in other chess engines too,i mean about other engines include similar database ?

Btw,i wonder too...how many chess programmers (exception you) are looking (coping,learning,deleting,renaming...) in the others engine.exe files work ?

All this work is legal ?


Best,
Sedat

AMEN TO THAT!- You damn right, Sedat. They have no business disabling anything in another author's engine. I didn't hear God took a vacation and left Richard in charge.

gts

[geots]

As far as i know, Strelka 5.5 was released as closed source engine

so what?

So i wonder, have you looked in other chess engines too,i mean about other engines include similar database ?

No, because none of the other engines I have on my PC behave suspiciously on test suites I use.

Btw,i wonder too...how many chess programmers (exception you) are looking (coping,learning,deleting,renaming...) in the others engine.exe files work ?

More than you expect. Remember Z.Wegner, M.Watkins, R.Hyatt & co RE-ing rybka?

All this work is legal ?

The user should never take it upon himself to do this himself- w/o the author's permission. Others may say they don't agree with me- but it is just a common, sometimes unspoken, act of respect and courtesy.

It is illegal or unethical if I fix my broken car myself? If I bypass the built-in speed limiter? If I tune my car? Sure, according to your logic it is unethical if the author (car manufacturer in my example) does not give his permission. One step forward - my friend asks me to fix his car. Why should I deny if I can do it? Why do you think software is something different (especially chess engines)?

George - you enjoy testing parameter-tuned Houdinis. Don't you remember who gave the community the information about the configuration data location in the exe file and the interpretation of the values? Hint: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 253#429253. Without this info I doubt any H20s, H20z, H20barracuda, H20mya$$ would exist. Now let's talk about "act of respect and courtesy"...

First I only test 2.0c and 1.5a. That's how much you know. Which is little or nothing to begin with. Secondly, don't even try that analogy bullshit with me- try some moron who's buying- it aint me. Don't you dare try to even attempt to justify going inside another man's engine in front of me! It shows no respect for him or me. No matter what you think of him. You think his engine is illegal or unfair- fine, but keep your damn hands off it and don't use it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please let it go here. What you have said is no different from saying you think I am a goddam idiot- so drop it now!

gts

[Sedat Canbaz]

[And I can get no one to tell me if anything in 5.5 has been disabled in the versions they are testing or not. No one wants to talk.


gts

Dear George,

Oh...sorry, I tested Strelka 5.5 as default (the original one,which was released by Jury Osipov):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/scct-rating/

Greetings,
Sedat

[Dan Honeycutt]

Dan, with the book issue- the same generic book has to be used for both engines. I am there no longer, but if I remember correctly, with an engine having an internal book inside the exe that could not be disabled- there was no way to be sure how much of its own book it was using- or if any- how far.

Hi George,

As long as the engine follows protocol it won't use any moves from it's book as long as the gui is feeding it book moves. Once the gui book runs out then the engine is on it's own to pick a move. There are two ways for the engine to do this:

(1) It recognizes the position and has moves to employ. This could be the case with a position database like Strelka or an engine with it's own book.

(2) It goes to its search.

The situation with Strelka and an engine with its own book are identical. That's why I find it odd that you have no problem with Strelka's database but you seem to have an issue with a book database.

Best
Dan H.