Moderator: Ras
tried it with finalgen. but leaves all white moves unsolved, except b3 and kc1 which is a win for black in 25Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[d]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1
Sometimes we need to leave the engines alone and move the pieces on a real board.duncan wrote:tried it with finalgen. but leaves all white moves unsolved, except b3 and kc1 which is a win for black in 25Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[d]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1
duncan
I will say that a5 asap is the only way to win. For example Ke2 Kd7 Kf3 h5 a4 Kc6 a5 winning! As I explained the extra tempo leads to zugzwang. Black is lost! Perhaps final gen does not understand this.I feel this position is too complex to understand it unless you start with something simpler.Robert Flesher wrote:Hi Uri, I did not say calculate it youself. I said look at the position yourself without an engine. You of all people I thought would understand this. LOL, I guess not!. I studied and learned the secrets of this postion without an engine. I wanted people to move the pieces and try to understand this position. I guess this was the wrong place to post this.Uri Blass wrote:Humans cannot calculate all possible lines so how looking at it by myself can help?Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[d]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1
seeing the solution does not help to be able to practically win it because black can practically play a different move.
For example 1.Ke2 Ke7 or 1.Ke2 a5 or 1.Ke2 Kd7 2.Kf3 Kc6
Impossible to calculate all lines and if humans can understand that white wins then I would like to read some strategy that tells me what to do in every position and not a variation.
I think it is safe to say that this position is far more complex that "a5 asap" and "the extra tempo leads to zugzwang". Sure, it is all about zugzwang, but the complexity is to such degree that mere mortals as opposed maybe to endgame specialists won't get very close to the solution from just "moving the pieces on a real board".Robert Flesher wrote:Sometimes we need to leave the engines alone and move the pieces on a real board.
This is "wild7" on ICC. the way I learned to win this with white was to take a chess board with the white pawns and black king and play. And learn where the zugzwang happens. Once you recognize the positions where the king to move loses, you have it. The key becomes that white moves first. And it is all about maintaining that zugzwang tempo so that at the critical position, black can either push a pawn and lose it, or move the king and let a white pawn queen.syzygy wrote:I think it is safe to say that this position is far more complex that "a5 asap" and "the extra tempo leads to zugzwang". Sure, it is all about zugzwang, but the complexity is to such degree that mere mortals as opposed maybe to endgame specialists won't get very close to the solution from just "moving the pieces on a real board".Robert Flesher wrote:Sometimes we need to leave the engines alone and move the pieces on a real board.
The article that was linked to might help though for gaining a real understanding of this position, I have not had a good enough look at it.
Once you study it infact it is that simple. I can beat ANY engine with ease playing the white pieces. So can anyone, but it requires some study. This is no different than learning Queen vs Rook in that it takes alot of study to be able to do it correctly. There are many different rank defense that the rook can adopt. However, once you have studied it enough it all comes together. Try it before you claim it to be to difficult, you may be surprised.syzygy wrote:I think it is safe to say that this position is far more complex that "a5 asap" and "the extra tempo leads to zugzwang". Sure, it is all about zugzwang, but the complexity is to such degree that mere mortals as opposed maybe to endgame specialists won't get very close to the solution from just "moving the pieces on a real board".Robert Flesher wrote:Sometimes we need to leave the engines alone and move the pieces on a real board.
The article that was linked to might help though for gaining a real understanding of this position, I have not had a good enough look at it.
A perfect explanation!bob wrote:This is "wild7" on ICC. the way I learned to win this with white was to take a chess board with the white pawns and black king and play. And learn where the zugzwang happens. Once you recognize the positions where the king to move loses, you have it. The key becomes that white moves first. And it is all about maintaining that zugzwang tempo so that at the critical position, black can either push a pawn and lose it, or move the king and let a white pawn queen.syzygy wrote:I think it is safe to say that this position is far more complex that "a5 asap" and "the extra tempo leads to zugzwang". Sure, it is all about zugzwang, but the complexity is to such degree that mere mortals as opposed maybe to endgame specialists won't get very close to the solution from just "moving the pieces on a real board".Robert Flesher wrote:Sometimes we need to leave the engines alone and move the pieces on a real board.
The article that was linked to might help though for gaining a real understanding of this position, I have not had a good enough look at it.
Thanks for posting, it is a really fascinating endgame!! The latest development version of Toga II (downloadable at the Toga Developers Discussion Board btw) takes 4.2 billion nodes(!) to find 1. Ke2 with a plus score without EGBBs:Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[d]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1