Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

Moderator: Ras

Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by Chessqueen »

I could not beat Stockfish_22021301_x64_avx2"] this time with a Rook Odds, and of course against Komodo Dragon it would be much harder for me. Oh well in move 3.....Qxd5? I should have taken the pawn with my Knight instead of my Queen :roll: :oops: :roll:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2022.03.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22021301_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Krushme-inchess"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3575"]
[Time "18:48:23"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "121"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd8 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6
8. Be2 Qxd4 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Rd1 Qb6 11. a3 g6 12. b4 Bg7 13. Qg3 Qd8 14. h4
O-O 15. h5 gxh5 16. Bh6 Ne8 17. Bg5 Nef6 18. Bh6 Ne8 19. Bxh5 Qc8 20. Be2
Ndf6 21. Re1 Qe6 22. Bd2 Qd7 23. Bd3 Ng4 24. Ne4 Be5 25. Qh3 Bh2+ 26. Kf1
f5 27. Nc5 Qd4 28. Be3 Qd6 29. Nxb7 Qd5 30. Na5 Kh8 31. Bc5 Bd6 32. c4 Nh2+
33. Kg1 Nf3+ 34. Qxf3 Qxf3 35. gxf3 Bxc5 36. bxc5 Rd8 37. Bc2 Rd2 38. Ba4
Ra2 39. Bxc6 Rxa3 40. Nb7 Nf6 41. Rxe7 Ra1+ 42. Kh2 Ra2 43. Nd6 Rxf2+ 44.
Kg3 Ra2 45. Kf4 Nh5+ 46. Kg5 Ng7 47. Bd5 Rg2+ 48. Kf4 Nh5+ 49. Ke3 f4+ 50.
Kd4 Rg7 51. Nf7+ Kg8 52. c6 Nf6 53. Ng5+ Nxd5 54. Rxg7+ Kxg7 55. cxd5 Kg8
56. d6 Rd8 57. Kc5 Kf8 58. c7 Rc8 59. Kc6 h6 60. Ne6+ Kf7 61. d7 {Black
resigns} *[/pgn]
lkaufman
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by lkaufman »

pepechuy wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:32 am
lkaufman wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:04 am
pepechuy wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:28 am Hi.

Next Tuesday 2022.03.22, I plan to play an odds match against engines on my laptop, using BanksiaGUI.
I will be playing a queen up from the initial position, with black. That is, remove the white queen.
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1
I intend to play until I defeat each engine at least once. If I fail to win a game, I will retry (perhaps not immediately).
Time control: rapid, 15 minutes initial time plus 10 seconds increment, from move 1.
(I would prefer a standard time control, but I do not have that much time).
I do not have a fixed schedule. I will begin as early as I feel comfortable, and I might take a lunch break, or simply rest between games.

First, some info about my computer (sorry, I am not sure what is relevant, so I pasted almost everything).

OS Name Microsoft Windows 10 Home
Version 10.0.19043 Build 19043
Other OS Description Not Available
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Manufacturer HP
System Model HP Notebook
System Type x64-based PC
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-5010U CPU @ 2.10GHz, 2100 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date Insyde F.1F, 2016-01-18
SMBIOS Version 2.8
Embedded Controller Version 96.45
BIOS Mode UEFI
BaseBoard Manufacturer HP
BaseBoard Product 80C1
BaseBoard Version 96.45
Platform Role Mobile
Secure Boot State Off
PCR7 Configuration Elevation Required to View
Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume2
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "10.0.19041.1566"
Time Zone Pacific Daylight Time
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 6.00 GB
Total Physical Memory 5.92 GB
Available Physical Memory 1.68 GB
Total Virtual Memory 8.18 GB
Available Virtual Memory 2.50 GB
Page File Space 2.27 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys
Kernel DMA Protection Off
Virtualization-based security Not enabled
Device Encryption Support Elevation Required to View
Hyper-V - VM Monitor Mode Extensions Yes
Hyper-V - Second Level Address Translation Extensions Yes
Hyper-V - Virtualization Enabled in Firmware No
Hyper-V - Data Execution Protection Yes

As for Banksia options, I will have all windows closed, except the board to play the game.
No arrows, or any other hint from the engines, I will be on my own.
I have not downloaded any tablebases, I doubt they fit in my hard drive.

Now, I plan to play against:
Crafty 25.3
Komodo bmi2 12
Lc0 openblas 0.27
Stockfish avx2 14

My first question for the community is... ¿are those the right versions to play against? I am particularly unsure about Lc0, I see also Lc0 opencl 0.23, I wonder if this one would be a better choice.

I plan to use all the default settings for each engine. My second question... ¿do you recommend any modification of the default settings?

Also, I would like to add a fifth engine. I prefer something essentially different from those four already listed (be it in the search, the evaluation, time management, or "style"). My third question... ¿which one(s) do you suggest?

Greetings.
Much more important than info about the computer is information about the human playing the games. What is your rating (either FIDE, USCF, Chess.com, lichess, ICC etc.)? In general, most engines can't play reasonably when down a full queen, but some are more hopeless at it than others. I estimate it only takes about a 1300 rating or so to be favored at queen odds even against Komodo Dragon in Rapid. You can improve Komodo's chances a bit by setting Contempt to a high value, perhaps the maximum value of 250. If you are a reasonably strong player, somewhere close to 2000 FIDE, then Rook odds is the proper handicap. Around 1700 or so probably two knights (or queen for knight) is appropriate.

Hi.

I do not have a FIDE rating (I have played some rated games, but not enough in a 26-month span to get a rating). My profile:
https://ratings.fide.com/profile/5133785

My profile at chess.com:
https://www.chess.com/member/peepchuy
(rapid 1754, bullet 990, blitz 1727, live960 1877).

My profile at lichess:
https://lichess.org/@/peepchuy
(bullet 1500?, chess960 1171?)

I am aware that I am probably a little too strong to take queen odds. But I did not want to skip them, after this I plan to play with rook odds.
I also think that at faster time controls, there is big chance of me simply dropping material (and engines never forgive that), that is why I am playing rapid.

I think I will replay the Komodo game, with contempt 250 as you suggest. ¿Do you recommend increasing the contempt for the other engines as well? (I mean, for these handicap games).

Greetings.
Chess.com Rapid ratings are roughly comparable to FIDE ratings, so you are probably somewhere around 1750 FIDE level I imagine. I would expect you to lose to Komodo (with high Contempt, maybe 150 is enough for rook odds) at rook odds in 15' + 10" Rapid, but I might be inclined to bet on you at two knights odds. I don't think Contempt is even an option with recent Stockfish, and I don't know how it works in Lc0 or Crafty, though logically a high value would seem appropriate for a large handicap game.
Komodo rules!
pepechuy
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 am
Full name: José García Ruvalcaba

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by pepechuy »

Chessqueen wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:21 am I could not beat Stockfish_22021301_x64_avx2"] this time with a Rook Odds, and of course against Komodo Dragon it would be much harder for me. Oh well in move 3.....Qxd5? I should have taken the pawn with my Knight instead of my Queen :roll: :oops: :roll:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2022.03.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22021301_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Krushme-inchess"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3575"]
[Time "18:48:23"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "121"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qd8 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6
8. Be2 Qxd4 9. O-O Nbd7 10. Rd1 Qb6 11. a3 g6 12. b4 Bg7 13. Qg3 Qd8 14. h4
O-O 15. h5 gxh5 16. Bh6 Ne8 17. Bg5 Nef6 18. Bh6 Ne8 19. Bxh5 Qc8 20. Be2
Ndf6 21. Re1 Qe6 22. Bd2 Qd7 23. Bd3 Ng4 24. Ne4 Be5 25. Qh3 Bh2+ 26. Kf1
f5 27. Nc5 Qd4 28. Be3 Qd6 29. Nxb7 Qd5 30. Na5 Kh8 31. Bc5 Bd6 32. c4 Nh2+
33. Kg1 Nf3+ 34. Qxf3 Qxf3 35. gxf3 Bxc5 36. bxc5 Rd8 37. Bc2 Rd2 38. Ba4
Ra2 39. Bxc6 Rxa3 40. Nb7 Nf6 41. Rxe7 Ra1+ 42. Kh2 Ra2 43. Nd6 Rxf2+ 44.
Kg3 Ra2 45. Kf4 Nh5+ 46. Kg5 Ng7 47. Bd5 Rg2+ 48. Kf4 Nh5+ 49. Ke3 f4+ 50.
Kd4 Rg7 51. Nf7+ Kg8 52. c6 Nf6 53. Ng5+ Nxd5 54. Rxg7+ Kxg7 55. cxd5 Kg8
56. d6 Rd8 57. Kc5 Kf8 58. c7 Rc8 59. Kc6 h6 60. Ne6+ Kf7 61. d7 {Black
resigns} *
[/pgn]
Hi.

¿Which time control did you use? Faster time controls are extremely disadvantageous for the human.

Greetings.
pepechuy
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 am
Full name: José García Ruvalcaba

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by pepechuy »

Hi.

Here it is, the game against Lc0. This one got a little complicated, I had to use a lot of time to avoid getting in trouble (I ended up with 9 minutes, that means that I used about 14 minutes in total).

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.03.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lc0 v0.27.0"]
[Black "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "3500"]
[Time "16:44:53"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "mate"]

1. Nf3 {-17.47/4 85040 5957} 1... Nf6 2. e3 {-19.49/4 46264 3304} 2... c5 3. Be2
{-20.17/4 38452 2790} 3... b6 4. b3 {-20.09/4 36321 2636} 4... g6 5. Bb2
{-21.42/4 28788 1992} 5... Bg7 6. O-O {-23.16/4 27363 2195} 6... Bb7 7. Na3
{-23.13/4 29253 2180} 7... O-O 8. Rad1 {-24.23/4 26127 1849} 8... e6 9. Nb5
{-24.05/4 30086 2261} 9... d5 10. Be5 {-25.91/4 24660 1831} 10... Na6 11. Nd6
{-19.89/4 22378 1469} 11... Qe7 12. Nxb7 {-24.19/4 16136 1558} 12... Qxb7 13. a3
{-26.21/4 19564 1911} 13... Nh5 14. Bxg7 {-23.50/4 36870 2708} 14... Kxg7 15.
Rfe1 {-26.52/4 22090 2104} 15... Nf6 16. h3 {-27.13/4 53293 3993} 16... Rac8 17.
Rc1 {-28.75/4 30543 2224} 17... Rfd8 18. d3 {-29.44/4 23902 1886} 18... Nb8 19.
Nd2 {-32.66/4 24201 1814} 19... Nc6 20. Nf3 {-35.27/4 32634 3151} 20... e5 21.
Nd2 {-35.68/4 20775 2938} 21... e4 22. Nf1 {-37.60/4 20374 2292} 22... Ne5 23.
d4 {-41.73/4 30399 2190} 23... cxd4 24. exd4 {-37.58/5 717 1378} 24... Nc6 25.
c3 {-40.38/4 22736 2033} 25... Ne7 26. Ne3 {-42.11/4 35649 2838} 26... Nf5 27.
Bg4 {-38.88/4 19885 2216} 27... Nxg4 28. hxg4 {-47.04/5 18851 1464} 28... Nxe3
29. Rxe3 {-54.34/4 13268 1321} 29... Qa6 30. a4 {-52.67/4 42574 3217} 30... Rc6
31. Rce1 {-56.72/4 23804 1914} 31... Rdc8 32. c4 {-57.92/4 21117 1564} 32...
dxc4 33. b4 {-66.28/4 20223 1524} 33... Qxa4 34. d5 {-68.94/4 18083 1713} 34...
Rd6 35. Rxe4 {-74.39/4 19691 1862} 35... c3 36. Rc1 {-78.47/4 49578 4308} 36...
c2 37. Ree1 {-83.60/4 26732 2474} 37... Rxd5 38. Rf1 {-91.81/4 19881 1744} 38...
Rd1 39. Kh2 {-93.79/4 18969 1558} 39... Rxf1 40. Rxf1 {-103.45/4 13502 1016}
40... c1=Q 41. Rxc1 {-93.23/5 12616 1087} 41... Rxc1 42. Kg3 {-106.68/5 2475
1909} 42... Qxb4 43. g5 {-110.96/4 22347 1978} 43... Rc5 44. Kh3 {-41.33/5 24283
2234} 44... Rxg5 45. g3 {-45.74/5 13360 1388} 45... Rh5+ 46. Kg2 {-115.82/1 19
92} 46... Qe4+ 47. Kg1 {-127.72/1 10 133} 47... Rh1# 0-1
[/pgn]

I am about to play against Stockfish.
Greetings.
pepechuy
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 am
Full name: José García Ruvalcaba

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by pepechuy »

Hi.

Now, the game against Stockfish. It played extremely slowly (until it had little time).
I do not know if this is normal (perhaps because it was losing, it took longer to move).

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.03.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 14"]
[Black "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "3500"]
[Time "17:22:55"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "mate"]

1. c3 {-12.92/22 87118 94776164} 1... Nf6 2. d4 {-13.47/22 97288 103460159} 2...
b6 3. Nf3 {-16.38/22 103604 101080163} 3... g6 4. g3 {-17.23/23 106974
117065699} 4... Bb7 5. Bh3 {-17.46/23 107833 116382010} 5... Bg7 6. O-O
{-17.46/22 98049 115693042} 6... c5 7. dxc5 {-16.92/21 104746 108248983} 7...
bxc5 8. Ne5 {-17.00/21 93655 111791980} 8... Nc6 9. Nxc6 {-16.53/21 95524
107217294} 9... Bxc6 10. Bg2 {-16.07/21 64278 79818539} 10... Bxg2 11. Kxg2
{-17.92/19 20111 30602371} 11... Rb8 12. Nd2 {-15.07/18 24660 27969898} 12...
O-O 13. e4 {-14.54/17 12921 14632694} 13... d6 14. f3 {-12.36/17 10581 12016411}
14... Bh6 15. Nc4 {-13.38/17 10138 12121638} 15... Bxc1 16. Raxc1 {-24.38/16
10008 12995876} 16... Qc7 17. b3 {-13.93/16 10027 11656184} 17... a5 18. Rf2
{-13.30/19 37 38001200} 18... a4 19. bxa4 {-13.46/18 17981 21632889} 19... Ra8
20. Rb2 {-13.46/17 11576 13841418} 20... Rfb8 21. Rcc2 {M-8/14 10357 14399955}
21... Rxa4 22. Ne3 {-17.61/15 10046 11357970} 22... Ra7 23. Nd5 {-18.01/15 10004
12589776} 23... Nxd5 24. exd5 {-72.90/14 10 14913186} 24... Rab7 25. Rb3 {M-7/19
17963 27164282} 25... Rxb3 26. axb3 {M-6/20 6956 10667161} 26... Rxb3 27. c4
{M-6/15 14022 22081060} 27... Qa5 28. Re2 {M-4/36 7172 9622431} 28... Kf8 29. g4
{M-4/26 7653 9629149} 29... Qc3 30. Rf2 {M-2/49 45 8657670} 30... Rb2 31. Rxb2
{M-2/31 8550 12808186} 31... Qxb2+ 32. Kg3 {M-5/30 2021 5309243} 32... g5 33. f4
{M-2/33 10 5988064} 33... Qc3+ 34. Kf2 {M-6/40 10 17192310} 34... f6 35. fxg5
{M-6/33 17080 26869995} 35... fxg5 36. Ke2 {M-6/31 2458 7272330} 36... Kf7 37.
h3 {M-6/38 19674 31774509} 37... Kf6 38. Kf2 {M-5/107 5026 12088904} 38... Ke5
39. h4 {M-4/245 10 8143313} 39... h6 40. h5 {M-4/245 3775 10571104} 40... Kf4
41. Kg2 {M-3/245 10 577098} 41... Qf3+ 42. Kg1 {M-3/245 106 209144} 42... Qe2
43. Kh1 {M-2/245 10 6990} 43... Kg3 44. Kg1 {M-1/245 34 492} 44... Qd1# 0-1
[/pgn]

I will take a rest before the next game, against Crafty.
I will set resign=100 (the default is resign=9, it resigns when losing by 9 or more pawns for several consecutive moves).
I hope it does not resign now.

Greetings.
pepechuy
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 am
Full name: José García Ruvalcaba

Re: Odds match: Human vs engines. Suggestions needed.

Post by pepechuy »

Hi.

Finally, the game against Crafty.
My move 24... Nb2 is probably not the best, objectively speaking (I took a couple of minutes to decide between it and 24... Bd5); but I think I made a good practical decision: getting rid of two bothersome White pieces (rook and bishop) for my queen.
Oh, Crafty did resign, but I think it should be mate in very few moves from the final position, so I will not replay it. I am going to assume that I was going to deliver a checkmate and avoid an stalemate.
I will look for a way to really prevent Crafty from resigning. If I do not find it, next time I will set resign=327.67

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.03.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Crafty-25.3"]
[Black "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[Time "20:03:30"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "resign"]

1. Nf3 {-11.06/24 39774 113557345} 1... Nf6 2. e3 {-11.02/24 47016 82729756}
2... c5 3. b3 {-11.01/24 93307 250417526} 3... g6 4. Be2 {-10.89/24 36301
110217345} 4... b6 5. O-O {-10.84/23 28895 81781018} 5... Bg7 6. Bb2 {-10.84/24
31054 93794795} 6... O-O 7. d4 {-10.84/23 26637 24931730} 7... Bb7 8. c4
{-10.81/24 36542 91931352} 8... cxd4 9. exd4 {-10.87/24 25377 82527214} 9... d5
10. Nc3 {-10.99/23 76476 214526851} 10... dxc4 11. bxc4 {-10.97/22 22953
41449388} 11... Ne4 12. Rac1 {-10.90/25 67645 224462341} 12... Nd7 13. Nxe4
{-10.78/23 39139 121921788} 13... Bxe4 14. Rfd1 {-10.93/23 27879 90614683} 14...
Nf6 15. Re1 {-11.00/22 142350 436101643} 15... Rc8 16. Ne5 {-11.08/23 45954
126370006} 16... Qc7 17. Bd1 {-11.02/23 46575 153596660} 17... Rfd8 18. Bb3
{-11.08/23 35573 102775954} 18... e6 19. Rcd1 {-11.25/22 73434 165296991} 19...
Ba8 20. f3 {-11.45/21 31542 91168473} 20... Ne8 21. Re2 {-11.51/21 47905
86139423} 21... Nd6 22. Rde1 {-12.49/21 34554 124828126} 22... Bxe5 23. Rxe5
{-13.12/29 7979 22198247} 23... Nxc4 24. Rc1 {-13.12/27 8076 31606880} 24...
Nxb2 25. Rxc7 {-12.48/26 9055 24558984} 25... Rxc7 26. Re2 {-12.69/26 10747
28516243} 26... Nc4 27. d5 {-12.23/21 27048 80608280} 27... Bxd5 28. Rc2
{-12.31/22 12434 17552566} 28... Rdc8 29. Re2 {-13.20/23 24201 82540992} 29...
b5 30. f4 {-12.34/19 16943 45322809} 30... Nb6 31. f5 {-13.95/21 13665 38685610}
31... Bxb3 32. axb3 {-16.73/23 11806 41365746} 32... Rc1+ 33. Kf2 {-17.95/21
9832 46764363} 33... R8c2 34. fxe6 {-15.79/20 11029 44564516} 34... fxe6 35. h4
{-21.38/20 10326 53716256} 35... a5 36. Kf3 {-22.02/19 9997 48687224} 36... Rxe2
37. Kxe2 {-327.43/19 9992 51308660} 37... a4 38. Kd2 {-327.45/19 6004 27476666}
38... Rc8 39. bxa4 {-327.47/19 6904 37789733} 39... bxa4 40. Kd3 {-327.51/19
7312 24372406} 40... a3 41. Ke2 {-327.53/19 7074 27822904} 41... a2 42. h5
{-327.55/22 7360 21311855} 42... a1=Q 43. hxg6 {-327.57/28 7282 23654298} 43...
Qe5+ 44. Kd2 {-327.59/49 7219 23901594} 44... Nc4+ 45. Kd3 {-327.59/50 7231
24059481} 45... Nb2+ 0-1
[/pgn]

Some final words.
Announcing this match, and sharing the games, made it a lot more exciting for me (as opposed to playing privately and in secret).
Also, ¡I feel tired! This should not happen after one game the first day and three games the second day (rapid time control); guess I am not a spring rooster any longer.

Next week I plan to play with rook odds (if I get some time, I might begin playing this week, but there would not be many games).
I am not sure where is best to share this games, if here (Tournaments and Matches) or in General Topics. I see that this forum is more focused on engine-engine matches.

Greetings.