Why don't strong engines enter WCCC?

[hgm]

In other words,
All top engines (Stockfish,Houdini,Komodo,Gull) include Rybka blood
And if Rybka is a clone or derivative, then all those top mentioned engines should be in that group too

There is no other explanation...!! do you understand me now ?))

What I do understand is that you are drawing completely wrong conclusions from irrelevant data. Whether an engine is a clone, derivative of original is determined by how much code of another engine it containes. Not on whether its rating increased before or after a certain other engine was released. That just has nothing to do with it. Even if Stockfish would have taken ideas from Ippolit that would have caused its rating increase, you have absolutely no idea of what these ideas were. You are just making (as it happens false) accusations based on pure guess work and misconceptions.

Your 'reasoning' is similar to the kind where you accuse a person that buys an expensive villa on the seafront soon after a bank was robbed of being one of the robbers, while in fact it was public knowledge he had just won the Nobel prize. In real life such kind of 'reasoning' will get you behind bars because of libel laws...

[stegemma]

Maybe because WCCC means: Weakest Chess Computer Championship?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Stockfish has no close similarity to Ippolit or its derivatives.

You might think there is only one way to build a very strong, top-10 engine, and that Rybka and its known and suspected derivatives showed the way. It is reasonable to suppose that. But as Stockfish shows, that is not so. There are multiple ways to do it.

I think the major contribution from Rybka to Stockfish is actually the testing methodology, using a large cluster - that part is similar.

--Jon

I agree...

Just I'd like to add,
Stockfish is the World's strongest engine and one the most original ones!
Which includes better original ideas than all, that's why is number one...!!
Rybka, Komodo, Houdini,Gull too...are one of the most original engines!!

We noticed also that,
Even open-source engines can be clones, right ?
For example: Ippolit (it is also an open-source engine)

Note also that,
With a very good camouflaging, even 100 % clone engines can have low similarities, for example: TwinFish

And I believe also in that,
There is only one way to determine which engine is original and based on own ideas: we should look at ELO points difference

That's why SCCT's new rule is:
I request + 100 Elo over based original engine

Btw, to be honest,
If the latest versions of Stockfish, Komodo, Gull, Houdini were at near Elo level as Rybka 3 (Ipppolit)...
Definitely they would not be allowed as participants in SCCT

Hopes helps,

Best,
Sedat

[Sedat Canbaz]

Maybe because WCCC means: Weakest Chess Computer Championship?

)))

EDIT: I see WCCC as qualification league, because leagues usually include 18 or 20 players

[Sedat Canbaz]

In other words,
All top engines (Stockfish,Houdini,Komodo,Gull) include Rybka blood
And if Rybka is a clone or derivative, then all those top mentioned engines should be in that group too

There is no other explanation...!! do you understand me now ?))

What I do understand is that you are drawing completely wrong conclusions from irrelevant data. Whether an engine is a clone, derivative of original is determined by how much code of another engine it containes. Not on whether its rating increased before or after a certain other engine was released. That just has nothing to do with it. Even if Stockfish would have taken ideas from Ippolit that would have caused its rating increase, you have absolutely no idea of what these ideas were. You are just making (as it happens false) accusations based on pure guess work and misconceptions.

Your 'reasoning' is similar to the kind where you accuse a person that buys an expensive villa on the seafront soon after a bank was robbed of being one of the robbers, while in fact it was public knowledge he had just won the Nobel prize. In real life such kind of 'reasoning' will get you behind bars
because of libel laws...

Dear HGM,

I respect you as a good programmer,
And I am so thankful for your programming efforts...

But however,
It's time you should be out from this thread....
Simply because you can't prove it that Rybka is a clone or derivative, ok ??

Otherwise,
I will not spend any more time with you over this issue!

Have a nice day,
Sedat

[Sedat Canbaz]

Just I'd like to add,
If Rybka was on near Elo level as Fruit, then:
-Definitely Rybka would not be as SCCT participant too!

But as we see,
The Elo difference is more than 400 Elo

[Uri Blass]

Stockfish has no close similarity to Ippolit or its derivatives.

You might think there is only one way to build a very strong, top-10 engine, and that Rybka and its known and suspected derivatives showed the way. It is reasonable to suppose that. But as Stockfish shows, that is not so. There are multiple ways to do it.

I think the major contribution from Rybka to Stockfish is actually the testing methodology, using a large cluster - that part is similar.

--Jon

I agree...

Just I'd like to add,
Stockfish is the World's strongest engine and one the most original ones!
Which includes better original ideas than all, that's why is number one...!!
Rybka, Komodo, Houdini,Gull too...are one of the most original engines!!

We noticed also that,
Even open-source engines can be clones, right ?
For example: Ippolit (it is also an open-source engine)

Note also that,
With a very good camouflaging, even 100 % clone engines can have low similarities, for example: TwinFish

Best,
Sedat

I suspect that TwinFish may have relatively higher similarity if you test at longer time control and it may be interesting to know if my opinion is correct.

If it is correct then it means that maybe we can detect clones by comparing similarity between short time control and long time control.

I mean that we may have something like the following for TwinFish-Stockfish similarity

50% similarity at 0.1 seconds per move
57% similarity at 10 seconds per move when
engines that are not clones and have 50% similarity at 0.1 seconds per move show less than 54% similarity at 10 seconds per move.

Of course the number 50% 54% 57% can be different and I only explain the idea by example.

[Sedat Canbaz]

I suspect that TwinFish may have relatively higher similarity if you test at longer time control and it may be interesting to know if my opinion is correct.

If it is correct then it means that maybe we can detect clones by comparing similarity between short time control and long time control.

I mean that we may have something like the following for TwinFish-Stockfish similarity

50% similarity at 0.1 seconds per move
57% similarity at 10 seconds per move when
engines that are not clones and have 50% similarity at 0.1 seconds per move show less than 54% similarity at 10 seconds per move.

Of course the number 50% 54% 57% can be different and I only explain the idea by example.

Yes..at slower time control the similarity can be different

Btw, another interesting point is that,
Exception TwinFish, is there any other engine which is created in a similar way ??

[hgm]

It's time you should be out from this thread....
Simply because you can't prove it that Rybka is a clone or derivative, ok ??

So you even don't know what the subject of this thread is?

Otherwise,
I will not spend any more time with you over this issue!

Well, that sounds promising, and I am sure it will be a great releif to everyone. Unfortunatly it has turned out that your word is worth very little in this respect, and despite earlier promises you keep returning here to bug people with your silly misconceptions.

[Sedat Canbaz]

It's time you should be out from this thread....
Simply because you can't prove it that Rybka is a clone or derivative, ok ??

So you even don't know what the subject of this thread is?

Otherwise,
I will not spend any more time with you over this issue!

Well, that sounds promising, and I am sure it will be a great releif to everyone. Unfortunatly it has turned out that your word is worth very little in this respect, and despite earlier promises you keep returning here to bug people with your silly misconceptions.

Sorry again that I can't keep my promise

But after reading your bullshit foul lunguage over me...
I could not control myself!

Each time as far as possible I tried to be kind against you...

But this time SORRY, I will be not so kind against you !

Why especially those who are from Europa use foul language over me ?

As far as I know,
Europe is an example, based on cultured, civilized people etc...

Note: I was born in Europe and I lived there 20 years
And still I have many good friends who live in Europe

But unfortunately, (who use abuse language over me)
Almost all those uncultured people are mainly from Europe, why ???

If Europe is so different and based on so cultured people...?
Then Europian people should an example to all, is not ???

And last,(a special message to HGM)
You are trying to fly high, but you can't...maybe your age does not allow ...

And it more look like you are flying too close to the sea, then again be very careful:
- Because if you do, the mist in the waves will weigh down your wings
and you will surely be eaten by the Shark (Rybka)!!!