Banksia GUI released

[phhnguyen]

Hi Pham,
removed dll from banksiagui 0.49 directory, but still it doesn't start on Windows 11 ARM64: clicking the .exe, the little blue wheel moves 2 times then stops and GUI never appears. Luckily 0.48 works fine now. Maybe a conflict on the configuration folder? But I fear to touch it... at least until I complete my 1431 games (now 1240 completed) and it creates the backup in Recent Tournaments

Best regards, Alex

Could you help with quick testing? Just rename the configuration or move it somewhere. BSG can't read data thus it will start with default values. We will know if there is any problem/conflict with existing data. Thanks.

[huanhuan]

I am so touched that you still remember me, and even know my country. For that I am very grateful

By the way, my eyesight is a bit disturbed by this => https://prnt.sc/19zynp2

The number "0" is truncated in square d5. That number "0" should still appear fully, but maybe the Transparency can be set so that it doesn't completely overlap the square d5. I think you know better what I mean.

Thank you...

[Torom]

Thanks for your great work with the GUI. The Lichess bot works pretty well now.

There is still sometimes the problem that Banksia thinks there is still a game, but this was actually aborted or ended because the opponent had no more time, in this case, there is an entry with empty cells in the "Playing" tab. But this problem is not so bad.

The most annoying thing is that Banksia occasionally thinks it has won a game on time, although this is not the case. In this case the GUI simply stops playing because it thinks the game is over, in reality you lose on time (not infrequently in completely won positions) because the GUI does not continue playing. This happens when the opponent has let his clock run down very much, but has not yet reached 0:00.

Let me know if I can help with more information or data regarding the bugs.

Thanks for the report. I have been working on those issues.

That's good to hear. Here is one such game from this morning, Banksia thought it had won the game but the opponent still had 1.24s on the clock.

https://lichess.org/giWiIPok

As I noted earlier, Banksia seems to take about 0.4s for a move from the opening book, which seems very long to me. My opponents, presumably using the standard Lichess bot client, need 0.0s. Maybe this is something that could be optimised in the future.

[Eduard]

I know that as well. In the beginning I lost so many games. Yes, especially if the opponent moves quickly at the end of the game and runs out of time. When I'm not playing bullet, I often have enough time to do hand moves on the Lichess Board in the browser. That saved a few games for me.

[Torom]

I know that as well. In the beginning I lost so many games. Yes, especially if the opponent moves quickly at the end of the game and runs out of time. When I'm not playing bullet, I often have enough time to do hand moves on the Lichess Board in the browser. That saved a few games for me.

Haha, yes, I've done that too

In the two games you can see the time until I opened my browser and moved until the opponent lost on time

https://lichess.org/JuwoN6Dw
https://lichess.org/FMpXwiC1

[Eduard]

.. yes, thats it.

[phhnguyen]

Thanks for your great work with the GUI. The Lichess bot works pretty well now.

There is still sometimes the problem that Banksia thinks there is still a game, but this was actually aborted or ended because the opponent had no more time, in this case, there is an entry with empty cells in the "Playing" tab. But this problem is not so bad.

The most annoying thing is that Banksia occasionally thinks it has won a game on time, although this is not the case. In this case the GUI simply stops playing because it thinks the game is over, in reality you lose on time (not infrequently in completely won positions) because the GUI does not continue playing. This happens when the opponent has let his clock run down very much, but has not yet reached 0:00.

Let me know if I can help with more information or data regarding the bugs.

Thanks for the report. I have been working on those issues.

That's good to hear. Here is one such game from this morning, Banksia thought it had won the game but the opponent still had 1.24s on the clock.

https://lichess.org/giWiIPok

As I noted earlier, Banksia seems to take about 0.4s for a move from the opening book, which seems very long to me. My opponents, presumably using the standard Lichess bot client, need 0.0s. Maybe this is something that could be optimised in the future.

I know that as well. In the beginning I lost so many games. Yes, especially if the opponent moves quickly at the end of the game and runs out of time. When I'm not playing bullet, I often have enough time to do hand moves on the Lichess Board in the browser. That saved a few games for me.

I reply here as a discussion/thought about Lichess time issues to all who got the same problems.

First I confirm that BSG is designed for not stopping when the game is finishing with Lichess bots. For those games BSG runs in a passive mode, doesn’t rule the game and all decisions are only from the Lichess servers. Just watch some bots’ games you can see that. There is a chance of bugs but so far (after studying a lot of games and log files) I did not found any evidence. Instead, I suspect the reliability of the connection with Lichess servers since I have seen some missing moves from servers. Those missing may be caused by Internet issues, BSG’s bugs (which I haven’t found yet) as well as Lichess servers themselves. AFAIK, Lichess servers use UDP connections, the cheap but not good reputation about reliability.

You have seen a move in the opening period with Lichess may take over 0.4s. I agree that is quite long. However, you may observe BSG can play those moves almost instantly (let two engines play together, using a Polyglot book, turn off move animation since BSG usually tries to make those moves move longer on the screen otherwise people can’t see their moving, but for online games, BSG doesn’t need that delay). Thus 0.4s is almost the time needed for the rival’s move to go from the server, to arrive BSG, then come back as the replied move, arrive the server, be processed and displayed. That is slower than many good servers but I doubt Lichess would spend much money for buying very strong, expensive computers and fast lines since the current ones are still acceptable. That means lagging may occur frequently and we can’t avoid dealing with that.

On another hand, engines may make the time issues worse. I know some engines use time so greedy, dry time quickly, then make moves instantly. That’s OK for local games but so bad for online games when the transmission time may be large. BSG has a feature to deal with that issue: it uses the move’s margin to reserve some time to spend for transmission/lagging. However, that can help a bit but the problem is still there and not enough for extreme cases.

Users should be aware of and deal with online-time issues. If it’s your engine, you may consider time management. If that’s not yours, consider finding a suitable engine for a given timer and/or find a suitable timer for those engines. For example, if you see an engine has frequently only a few seconds for endgames, use longer timers for that engine. Notes that some bots solve the issues by a very simple way: move very fast, almost instantly

Last, we may simply accept the situation. After studying for a while, I really my bots have the rate of losing by time is not too bad, equal or even better than other bots that have been lost to my ones by time. Of course, I always try to check/verify any loss (for debugging purposes) but looks like they are just generic issues.

[Torom]

Thanks for your great work with the GUI. The Lichess bot works pretty well now.

There is still sometimes the problem that Banksia thinks there is still a game, but this was actually aborted or ended because the opponent had no more time, in this case, there is an entry with empty cells in the "Playing" tab. But this problem is not so bad.

The most annoying thing is that Banksia occasionally thinks it has won a game on time, although this is not the case. In this case the GUI simply stops playing because it thinks the game is over, in reality you lose on time (not infrequently in completely won positions) because the GUI does not continue playing. This happens when the opponent has let his clock run down very much, but has not yet reached 0:00.

Let me know if I can help with more information or data regarding the bugs.

Thanks for the report. I have been working on those issues.

That's good to hear. Here is one such game from this morning, Banksia thought it had won the game but the opponent still had 1.24s on the clock.

https://lichess.org/giWiIPok

As I noted earlier, Banksia seems to take about 0.4s for a move from the opening book, which seems very long to me. My opponents, presumably using the standard Lichess bot client, need 0.0s. Maybe this is something that could be optimised in the future.

I know that as well. In the beginning I lost so many games. Yes, especially if the opponent moves quickly at the end of the game and runs out of time. When I'm not playing bullet, I often have enough time to do hand moves on the Lichess Board in the browser. That saved a few games for me.

You have seen a move in the opening period with Lichess may take over 0.4s. I agree that is quite long. However, you may observe BSG can play those moves almost instantly (let two engines play together, using a Polyglot book, turn off move animation since BSG usually tries to make those moves move longer on the screen otherwise people can’t see their moving, but for online games, BSG doesn’t need that delay). Thus 0.4s is almost the time needed for the rival’s move to go from the server, to arrive BSG, then come back as the replied move, arrive the server, be processed and displayed. That is slower than many good servers but I doubt Lichess would spend much money for buying very strong, expensive computers and fast lines since the current ones are still acceptable. That means lagging may occur frequently and we can’t avoid dealing with that.

Thank you for the detailed answer.

I absolutely agree with you that not all the problems we observe are Banksia's fault. We must not forget that very fast moves are sent over the internet, so there will always be failures and lags.

But I find it hard to believe that the moves from the opening book can be explained with lags. In the following pictures you can see that Banksia needs ~ 0.4s for the moves from the opening book, as soon as I am out of the book Banksia is able to move in 0.0s. So lag is virtually impossible here. In the endgame, too, moves are often made faster than in 0.4s.

I am black https://lichess.org/FfvlLSfj


I am white https://lichess.org/gcCNzFqt


I am black https://lichess.org/OKp9OC27

[phhnguyen]

Thanks for your great work with the GUI. The Lichess bot works pretty well now.

There is still sometimes the problem that Banksia thinks there is still a game, but this was actually aborted or ended because the opponent had no more time, in this case, there is an entry with empty cells in the "Playing" tab. But this problem is not so bad.

The most annoying thing is that Banksia occasionally thinks it has won a game on time, although this is not the case. In this case the GUI simply stops playing because it thinks the game is over, in reality you lose on time (not infrequently in completely won positions) because the GUI does not continue playing. This happens when the opponent has let his clock run down very much, but has not yet reached 0:00.

Let me know if I can help with more information or data regarding the bugs.

Thanks for the report. I have been working on those issues.

That's good to hear. Here is one such game from this morning, Banksia thought it had won the game but the opponent still had 1.24s on the clock.

https://lichess.org/giWiIPok

As I noted earlier, Banksia seems to take about 0.4s for a move from the opening book, which seems very long to me. My opponents, presumably using the standard Lichess bot client, need 0.0s. Maybe this is something that could be optimised in the future.

I know that as well. In the beginning I lost so many games. Yes, especially if the opponent moves quickly at the end of the game and runs out of time. When I'm not playing bullet, I often have enough time to do hand moves on the Lichess Board in the browser. That saved a few games for me.

You have seen a move in the opening period with Lichess may take over 0.4s. I agree that is quite long. However, you may observe BSG can play those moves almost instantly (let two engines play together, using a Polyglot book, turn off move animation since BSG usually tries to make those moves move longer on the screen otherwise people can’t see their moving, but for online games, BSG doesn’t need that delay). Thus 0.4s is almost the time needed for the rival’s move to go from the server, to arrive BSG, then come back as the replied move, arrive the server, be processed and displayed. That is slower than many good servers but I doubt Lichess would spend much money for buying very strong, expensive computers and fast lines since the current ones are still acceptable. That means lagging may occur frequently and we can’t avoid dealing with that.

Thank you for the detailed answer.

I absolutely agree with you that not all the problems we observe are Banksia's fault. We must not forget that very fast moves are sent over the internet, so there will always be failures and lags.

But I find it hard to believe that the moves from the opening book can be explained with lags. In the following pictures you can see that Banksia needs ~ 0.4s for the moves from the opening book, as soon as I am out of the book Banksia is able to move in 0.0s. So lag is virtually impossible here. In the endgame, too, moves are often made faster than in 0.4s.

I am black https://lichess.org/FfvlLSfj


I am white https://lichess.org/gcCNzFqt


I am black https://lichess.org/OKp9OC27

You are right. I have checked and found a problem making BSG delay a bit (max 0.5s) for opening moves. Fixed for the next release. Thanks a lot!

[AlexChess]

In BSG 0.50 could you also add a feature to modify settings of a Running Tournament? (Rounds number, game time controls, draw/lose & tablebase settings) I would like to continue the same tournament playing all games with reverse colors.

PS: About to complete my 1431 games, then I'll rename BSG config settings folder to test if it starts again.

Best regards, Alex