We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:51 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+ Kxh7[/pgn]
Kxh7

Actually, I should orobably bank the draw with RxR here, defending in open positions against deep engines is way too stressy. Nf3+ broke all my positional rules on hope that pawn xf6 would get played. Dumb move.
[/quote]

Just to avoid any confusion, the move is Kxh7, it shows up in the pgn now (I had entered lower case kxh7, which didn’t get parsed)
[/quote]

[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:40 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:54 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:34 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2[/pgn]

Bxb2
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+ kxh7[/pgn]
Kxh7

Actually, I should orobably bank the draw with RxR here, defending in open positions against deep engines is way too stressy. Nf3+ broke all my positional rules on hope that pawn xf6 would get played. Dumb move.
Either way by taking the Rook or taking the pawn you position will become Open, therefore, Mr. Kaufman might accept your Draw offer :mrgreen:
He didn't offer a draw, he just pointed out that he could have forced the draw by taking the rook. The move chosen effectively declined the draw offer implied by 34. Rg8+.
Komodo rules!
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 6:46 pm
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:40 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:54 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 9:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:34 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2[/pgn]

Bxb2
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+ kxh7[/pgn]
Kxh7

Actually, I should orobably bank the draw with RxR here, defending in open positions against deep engines is way too stressy. Nf3+ broke all my positional rules on hope that pawn xf6 would get played. Dumb move.
Either way by taking the Rook or taking the pawn you position will become Open, therefore, Mr. Kaufman might accept your Draw offer :mrgreen:
He didn't offer a draw, he just pointed out that he could have forced the draw by taking the rook. The move chosen effectively declined the draw offer implied by 34. Rg8+.
Mr. Kaufman at this point you might as well resign for Komodo Dragon 2 MCTS, unless Chrisw is willing to sit down for another 20 Minutes since he stated before that he does Not take more than 1 minute per move and more likely Dragon 2 MCTS will NOT take more than 5 minutes for another 14 moves and both of you can finish this game in the next half an hour. :roll:
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chrisw
Posts: 4773
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 6:42 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:51 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "67"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+ Kxh7[/pgn]
Kxh7

Actually, I should orobably bank the draw with RxR here, defending in open positions against deep engines is way too stressy. Nf3+ broke all my positional rules on hope that pawn xf6 would get played. Dumb move.
Just to avoid any confusion, the move is Kxh7, it shows up in the pgn now (I had entered lower case kxh7, which didn’t get parsed)
[/quote]

[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 [/pgn]

Bg7
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 8:05 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 [/pgn]

Bg7
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 * [/pgn]

Regardless of the final result, the fact that we reached a position where Chris was tempted to take a draw, even though he decided against doing so, shows that the handicap was not totally unreasonable, especially if the Armageddon rule were used meaning that the human must win the game.
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4773
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 8:37 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 8:05 pm
[pgn]
[Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 [/pgn]

Bg7
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 [/pgn]

Regardless of the final result, the fact that we reached a position where Chris was tempted to take a draw, even though he decided against doing so, shows that the handicap was not totally unreasonable, especially if the Armageddon rule were used meaning that the human must win the game.
Ha! There’s a challenge.

Qf6
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 9:01 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 [/pgn]

Regardless of the final result, the fact that we reached a position where Chris was tempted to take a draw, even though he decided against doing so, shows that the handicap was not totally unreasonable, especially if the Armageddon rule were used meaning that the human must win the game.
Ha! There’s a challenge.

Qf6
[/quote]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ * [/pgn]

Yes, I expect that any knight odds matches with GMs will be with Armaggedon rule, because it's easy to get a draw against the engine at knight odds, since the engine (even with any plausible Contempt setting) will be aiming for a draw itself unless the human drops significant material. Having opposing aims where one side must prevail makes it more interesting.
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4773
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:03 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 9:01 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 [/pgn]

Regardless of the final result, the fact that we reached a position where Chris was tempted to take a draw, even though he decided against doing so, shows that the handicap was not totally unreasonable, especially if the Armageddon rule were used meaning that the human must win the game.
Ha! There’s a challenge.

Qf6
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 [/pgn]

Yes, I expect that any knight odds matches with GMs will be with Armaggedon rule, because it's easy to get a draw against the engine at knight odds, since the engine (even with any plausible Contempt setting) will be aiming for a draw itself unless the human drops significant material. Having opposing aims where one side must prevail makes it more interesting.
[/quote]

Qxg6

I think that’s over-optimistic. At knight odds the engine is going to lose unless the human player is stressed out and errors. I still might of course.
Top
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:11 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 [/pgn]

Yes, I expect that any knight odds matches with GMs will be with Armaggedon rule, because it's easy to get a draw against the engine at knight odds, since the engine (even with any plausible Contempt setting) will be aiming for a draw itself unless the human drops significant material. Having opposing aims where one side must prevail makes it more interesting.
Qxg6

I think that’s over-optimistic. At knight odds the engine is going to lose unless the human player is stressed out and errors. I still might of course.
[/quote]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ * [\pgn]

Well, I'm thinking in terms of a low-rated but still active GM (say 2400-2450 FIDE) and the standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", which is roughly 30" per move for an average length game. So some time stress, but not severe. With Armageddon rule, I think this might be about balanced.[/pgn]
Komodo rules!
Top
chrisw
Posts: 4773
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:34 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:11 pm
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 [/pgn]

Yes, I expect that any knight odds matches with GMs will be with Armaggedon rule, because it's easy to get a draw against the engine at knight odds, since the engine (even with any plausible Contempt setting) will be aiming for a draw itself unless the human drops significant material. Having opposing aims where one side must prevail makes it more interesting.
Qxg6

I think that’s over-optimistic. At knight odds the engine is going to lose unless the human player is stressed out and errors. I still might of course.
[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2021.05.29"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5 12. cxd5 Ne5 13. Be4 Bg7 14. f4 Ned7 15.
f5 O-O 16. Ra3 Ne5 17. Rg3 Qe8 18. b3 c6 19. dxc6 bxc6 20. Rf2 e6 21. fxg6 Rxf2
22. gxh7+ Kh8 23. Kxf2 Qf7+ 24. Kg1 Rf8 25. h3 d5 26. Bf3 c5 27. Qe2 Nc6 28.
Bb2 Nd4 29. Qe1 Nd7 30. Bd1 e5 31. Rg5 e4 32. Qg3 Nf3+ 33. Bxf3 Bxb2 34. Rg8+
Kxh7 35. Rg5 Bg7 36. Bh5 Qf6 37. Bg6+ Qxg6 38. Qh4+ Qh6 [/pgn]

Well, I'm thinking in terms of a low-rated but still active GM (say 2400-2450 FIDE) and the standard Rapid time control of 15' + 10", which is roughly 30" per move for an average length game. So some time stress, but not severe. With Armageddon rule, I think this might be about balanced.
[/quote]


Qh6

Inverted backslash character btw
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