Junior 2010 : The new Tal ?

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Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:27 pm

Re: Junior 2010 : The new Tal ?

Post by Don »

Yes, my forum post assumes g4 is best but I never tried to prove it or to convince myself of it. To me the word "best" should mean the only move that wins (or draws if you would otherwise lose.) So whether g4 stands alone as the only playable move is in serious doubt.
M ANSARI wrote:I am not convinced g4 is the best move in this position. Of course it was a nice win by Junior, but it also looks like black could have defended better. Junior will win a spectacular game every once in a while, but to get that one win it will lose 20 in equally spectacular fashion. Some of the most beautiful attacking games I have ever seen was with Rybka Dynamic on high contempt, but the increased amount of losses drown out the few dramatic wins.

[d]3rr1k1/1nbn1ppp/p1q1b3/2p1p1PQ/PpP1N3/1P1PN3/1BB2P1K/5RR1 b - - 0 29

In this position Rybka played Bb8 moving an important defending piece to an inactive square. With more time Rybka 3 would choose Bd6, which would make much more sense as they bring in the piece to defend rather than move away from the attack. In such a sharp position any small error can immediately result in a dramatic loss. That is the beauty of chess, especially in human chess. Here is a 5 minute analysis of R3 on the position mentioned


3rr1k1/1nbn1ppp/p1q1b3/2p1p1PQ/PpP1N3/1P1PN3/1BB2P1K/5RR1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3:

29...Nd6 30.Nf6+
-/+ (-0.75) Depth: 6 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nd6 30.Nf6+
-/+ (-0.75) Depth: 7 00:00:00 0kN
29...Bb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.63) Depth: 8 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rf8 30.Nf6+ gxf6 31.gxf6+
=/+ (-0.58) Depth: 9 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.40) Depth: 10 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rc8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.46) Depth: 10 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.40) Depth: 11 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nf8 30.Nf6+
= (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nf8 30.Nf6+
= (0.00) Depth: 13 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 15 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 16 00:00:00 34kN

(, Microsoft 20.01.2010)
yanquis1972
Posts: 1766
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:14 am

Re: Junior 2010 : The new Tal ?

Post by yanquis1972 »

3rr1k1/1nbn1ppp/p1q1b3/2p1p1PQ/PpP1N3/1P1PN3/1BB2P1K/5RR1 b - -

Engine: IvanHoe 9.73b x64P 4T (1024 MB)
by Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovi

13.33 0:00 -0.38 1...Bb8 2.Qf3 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 f5
5.gxf6 Nxe4 6.dxe4 Nxf6 7.Nd5 Bf7
8.Rd1 Rcd8 9.Qf5 h5 (3.418.997) 3716

14.33 0:01 -0.30-- 1...Bb8 2.Qf3 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 f5
5.gxf6 Nxe4 6.dxe4 Nxf6 7.Nd5 Bf7
8.Rd1 Rcd8 9.Qf5 h5 (5.585.593) 3978

14.01 0:01 -0.28 1...Bb8 2.Qf3 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 f5
5.gxf6 Nxe4 6.dxe4 Nxf6 7.Nd5 Bf7
8.Rd1 h5 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qxf6 gxf6 (5.737.473) 3998

14.33 0:01 -0.28 1...Bb8 2.Qf3 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 f5
5.gxf6 Nxe4 6.dxe4 Nxf6 7.Nd5 Bf7
8.Rd1 h5 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qxf6 gxf6 (6.969.386) 4023

15.33 0:04 -0.20-- 1...Bb8 2.Qf3 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 f5
5.gxf6 Nxe4 6.dxe4 Nxf6 7.Nd5 Bf7
8.Rd1 h5 9.Rh2 Ng4 10.Rg2 Bg6 11.Rg3 Bh7
12.a5 Rcd8 (18.765.359) 4644

15.01 0:04 -0.22 1...Bb8 2.Rd1 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Qf3 Red8 6.Nd5 Ng6 7.Qh5 Bxd5
8.Qxh7+ Kf8 9.cxd5 Qxd5 10.Qh3 Bc7 (20.029.957) 4668

15.33 0:04 -0.22 1...Bb8 2.Rd1 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Qf3 Red8 6.Nd5 Ng6 7.Qh5 Bxd5
8.Qxh7+ Kf8 9.cxd5 Qxd5 10.Qh3 Bc7 (20.039.203) 4653

16.33 0:08 -0.14-- 1...Bb8 2.Rd1 Rc8 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Qf3 a5 6.Nd5 Ng6 7.Qh5 Bxd5 8.cxd5 Qxd5
9.Qxh7+ Kf8 10.Qh3 Rcd8 11.Qf3 (40.322.074) 4867

16.33 0:13 -0.17 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Re1 Qb7 6.Qg3 Nxe4 7.dxe4 Qc6
8.Nd5 Bd6 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxe5 Bxd5
11.cxd5 Rxe5 12.dxc6 Rxg5+ 13.Kf1 (67.036.120) 4956

16.33 0:13 -0.17 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Re1 Qb7 6.Qg3 Nxe4 7.dxe4 Qc6
8.Nd5 Bd6 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxe5 Bxd5
11.cxd5 Rxe5 12.dxc6 Rxg5+ 13.Kf1 (67.036.120) 4956

17.01 0:13 -0.17 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Re1 Qb7 6.Qg3 Nxe4 7.dxe4 Qc6
8.Nd5 Bd6 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxe5 Bxd5
11.cxd5 Rxe5 12.dxc6 Rxg5+ 13.Kf1 (69.207.506) 4962

17.33 0:14 -0.17 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Re1 Qb7 6.Qg3 Nxe4 7.dxe4 Qc6
8.Nd5 Bd6 9.Bxe5 Bxe5 10.Qxe5 Bxd5
11.cxd5 Rxe5 12.dxc6 Rxg5+ 13.Kf1 (70.511.112) 4945

18.33 0:19 -0.09-- 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Nd2 Bd7 6.Nd5 Qc6 7.Re1 Nf5 8.Ne4 Bb8
9.Bb1 Ng6 10.Qh5 h6 11.gxh6 Nxh6
12.Nef6+ gxf6 13.Qxh6 (98.199.774) 5003

18.33 0:26 -0.01-- 1...a5 2.Qf3 Qb6 3.Rh1 Nd6 4.Kg1 Nf8
5.Nd2 Bd7 6.Nd5 Qc6 7.Re1 Nf5 8.Ne4 Bb8
9.Bb1 Ng6 10.Qh5 h6 11.gxh6 Nxh6
12.Nef6+ gxf6 13.Qxh6 (134.721.798) 5038

18.16 0:36 0.00 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (186.809.612) 5082

18.33 0:37 0.00 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (191.922.345) 5077

19.01 0:38 0.00 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (193.845.999) 5082

19.33 0:41 0.00 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (212.192.590) 5069

20.33 1:06 +0.08-- 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (343.291.099) 5183

20.33 1:33 +0.16-- 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Be7
5.Qh6 Bf8 (483.586.044) 5182

20.33 2:18 +0.28-- 1...g6 2.Qh6 Bd6 3.Rh1 Bf8 4.Qh4 Bg7
5.Kg1 Nf8 6.Nf6+ Bxf6 7.gxf6 h5
8.Qg5 Bc8 9.Bxe5 Rxe5 10.Qxe5 Nd7
11.Qg5 Nxf6 12.Re1 Re8 13.Ng2 Rxe1+
14.Nxe1 Kg7 (728.835.055) 5274

20.12 4:05 +0.28 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Kg2 Nd6 8.Rd1 Kf8
9.Bb1 a5 10.Bc2 Bb8 11.Rd2 Nb6
12.Rhd1 (1.330.959.702) 5415

20.33 4:05 +0.28 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Kg2 Nd6 8.Rd1 Kf8
9.Bb1 a5 10.Bc2 Bb8 11.Rd2 Nb6
12.Rhd1 (1.331.049.747) 5414

21.01 4:18 +0.25 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 11.Rfd2 Kf8
12.Kg2 Nbc8 13.Bb1 Ne7 (1.404.896.602) 5433

21.33 4:34 +0.25 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 11.Rfd2 Kf8
12.Kg2 Nbc8 13.Bb1 Ne7 (1.489.387.921) 5434

22.33 6:19 +0.33-- 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 11.Rfd2 Kf8
12.Bb1 Nbc8 13.Qf3 h5 (2.090.501.031) 5515

22.33 8:15 +0.41-- 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 11.Rfd2 Kf8
12.Bb1 Nbc8 13.Qf3 h5 (2.752.429.245) 5559

22.33 12:35 +0.53-- 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 (4.216.782.041) 5582

22.01 13:16 +0.71 1...Kf8 2.Rh1 Ke7 3.Re1 Rh8 4.f4 h6
5.g6 f6 6.f5 Bg8 7.Rhf1 Nd6 8.Kg1 a5
9.Rd1 Bb8 10.Rf2 Nb6 (4.449.033.098) 5584

best move: Kg8-f8 time: 13:16.853 min n/s: 5.584.000 nodes: 4.449.033.098
User avatar
M ANSARI
Posts: 3721
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:10 pm

Re: Junior 2010 : The new Tal ?

Post by M ANSARI »

That also doesn't do too well due to Bd1! Maybe with one more ply the engine will see it. I will say that I played through Bd6 and it did seem to hold a draw somehow. Probably play could be improved though either way. Again hard to say either way without heavy analysis.
Robert Flesher
Posts: 1285
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Junior 2010 : The new Tal ?

Post by Robert Flesher »

M ANSARI wrote:I am not convinced g4 is the best move in this position. Of course it was a nice win by Junior, but it also looks like black could have defended better. Junior will win a spectacular game every once in a while, but to get that one win it will lose 20 in equally spectacular fashion. Some of the most beautiful attacking games I have ever seen was with Rybka Dynamic on high contempt, but the increased amount of losses drown out the few dramatic wins.

[d]3rr1k1/1nbn1ppp/p1q1b3/2p1p1PQ/PpP1N3/1P1PN3/1BB2P1K/5RR1 b - - 0 29

In this position Rybka played Bb8 moving an important defending piece to an inactive square. With more time Rybka 3 would choose Bd6, which would make much more sense as they bring in the piece to defend rather than move away from the attack. In such a sharp position any small error can immediately result in a dramatic loss. That is the beauty of chess, especially in human chess. Here is a 5 minute analysis of R3 on the position mentioned


3rr1k1/1nbn1ppp/p1q1b3/2p1p1PQ/PpP1N3/1P1PN3/1BB2P1K/5RR1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3:

29...Nd6 30.Nf6+
-/+ (-0.75) Depth: 6 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nd6 30.Nf6+
-/+ (-0.75) Depth: 7 00:00:00 0kN
29...Bb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.63) Depth: 8 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rf8 30.Nf6+ gxf6 31.gxf6+
=/+ (-0.58) Depth: 9 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.40) Depth: 10 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rc8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.46) Depth: 10 00:00:00 0kN
29...Rb8 30.Rg3
=/+ (-0.40) Depth: 11 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nf8 30.Nf6+
= (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:00 0kN
29...Nf8 30.Nf6+
= (0.00) Depth: 13 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 15 00:00:00 34kN
29...Bd6 30.Rh1
= (0.00) Depth: 16 00:00:00 34kN

(, Microsoft 20.01.2010)

I never stated g4 was the best move, but concluded it was a !!
Which seems justified due to the resulting complications and tactical ramifications . As I have stated many times, I could care less if Rybka is stronger. I posted a very interesting game that shows Juniors attractive (Tal like) style. The result or the players are of little matter to me, its the game "chess" that interests me.