Theban Chess

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:13 pm

It is a bit fishy that Houdini can analyze the position, but not play. Are you sure it is analyzing the correct position? I don't know what the problem is when you try tomake it play, but it could be that it only takes the first 8 pawns of each side into account. And that could the be the reason it evaluates it as equal...

I guess Fairy-Max is not really a match for Stockfish; it probably is outsearched by at least 10 ply... In tactical variants like Gothic this puts it more in the same class as human amateurs, rather than being unbeatable to a super-GM.

Laskos · Post by **Laskos** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:47 pm

hgm wrote:It is a bit fishy that Houdini can analyze the position, but not play. Are you sure it is analyzing the correct position? I don't know what the problem is when you try tomake it play, but it could be that it only takes the first 8 pawns of each side into account. And that could the be the reason it evaluates it as equal...

I guess Fairy-Max is not really a match for Stockfish; it probably is outsearched by at least 10 ply... In tactical variants like Gothic this puts it more in the same class as human amateurs, rather than being unbeatable to a super-GM.

Yes, now I saw that Houdini gives some illegal moves in PV, it's an analysis here is useless. But Komodo 3 actually plays the game (sometimes stalls), and gives a fairly accurate and stable evaluation of the starting position:

FEN: 1p6/2p3kn/3p2pp/4pppp/5ppp/8/PPPPPPPP/PPPPPPKN w - - 0 1

Komodo3-64:
1 00:00 102 102,056 +0.73 f2-f3 Kg7-f6
2 00:00 225 225,123 +0.64 f2-f3 Kg7-f6 Nh1-f2 g4xf3
3 00:00 959 319,842 +0.56 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3
4 00:00 1,201 300,271 +0.47 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 h2-h3
5 00:00 1,855 371,062 +0.53 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 f2-f3 g4-g3
5 00:00 2,207 315,287 +0.53 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 f2-f3 g4-g3
6 00:00 2,570 321,273 +0.44 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 f2-f3 g4-g3 h2-h3
6 00:00 4,255 327,295 +0.44 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 f2-f3 g4-g3 h2-h3
7 00:00 5,883 346,054 +0.60 d2-d3
7 00:00 6,110 359,407 +0.60 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 a2-a4 d6-d5 f2-f3 g4-g3
7 00:00 6,899 363,086 +0.60 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 a2-a4 d6-d5 f2-f3 g4-g3
8 00:00 9,883 352,965 +0.56 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Nh7-f8 b2-b3 d6-d5 c2-c3 d5-d4 c3xd4 e5xd4
8 00:00 11,950 362,110 +0.56 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Nh7-f8 b2-b3 d6-d5 c2-c3 d5-d4 c3xd4 e5xd4
9 00:00 22,387 392,733 +0.55 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 Nh7-f8 a2-a4 b8-b7 a4-a5 c7-c5 c2-c3 Kf6-e6
9 00:00 27,074 370,857 +0.55 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 Nh7-f8 a2-a4 b8-b7 a4-a5 c7-c5 c2-c3 Kf6-e6
10 00:00 57,621 426,797 +0.58 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 e5-e4 d3xe4 f5xe4 a2-a4 b8-b7 a4-a5 c7-c5 c2-c3 Kf6-e5
10 00:00 71,238 431,723 +0.58 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 e5-e4 d3xe4 f5xe4 a2-a4 b8-b7 a4-a5 c7-c5 c2-c3 Kf6-e5
11 00:00 97,251 467,531 +0.53 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 e5-e4 d3xe4 f5xe4 a2-a4 Kf6-e5 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 Nf6-d5
11 00:00 166,212 525,958 +0.60 a2-a4 c7-c5 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 c2-c4 Nf8-d7 f2-f3 g4-g3 h2-h3 b8-b7
11 00:00 169,470 524,644 +0.60 a2-a4 c7-c5 b2-b3 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 c2-c4 Nf8-d7 f2-f3 g4-g3 h2-h3 b8-b7
12 00:00 246,271 553,387 +0.53 a2-a4 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 c7-c5 c2-c3 b8-b7 a4-a5 Kf6-e6 f2-f3 Nh7-f6 h2-h3 g4-g3 d2-d3
12 00:00 282,760 555,490 +0.53 a2-a4 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 c7-c5 c2-c3 b8-b7 a4-a5 Kf6-e6 f2-f3 Nh7-f6 h2-h3 g4-g3 d2-d3
13 00:00 344,517 569,417 +0.54 a2-a4 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 c7-c5 c2-c3 b8-b7 a4-a5 Kf6-e6 e2-e3 Nh7-f6 e3xf4 g5xf4 f2-f3 g4-g3 d2-d3
13 00:00 391,199 572,734 +0.54 a2-a4 Kg7-f6 b2-b4 c7-c5 c2-c3 b8-b7 a4-a5 Kf6-e6 e2-e3 Nh7-f6 e3xf4 g5xf4 f2-f3 g4-g3 d2-d3
14 00:01 722,739 600,746 +0.56 a2-a4 c7-c5 b2-b3 Kg7-f6 d2-d3 b8-b7 c2-c4 Nh7-f8 c1-c2 Nf8-d7 a1-a2 e5-e4 f2-f3 Kf6-e5 Nh1-f2 g4xf3
14 00:01 854,901 605,848 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2
14 00:01 870,105 600,867 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2
15 00:01 1,019,391 603,870 +0.61 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 c3-c4 g4xf3
15 00:01 1,083,085 603,692 +0.61 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 c3-c4 g4xf3
16 00:02 1,406,315 609,287 +0.55 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g5-g4 e1-e2 Ke5-d5 b4-b5 Kd5-c5
16 00:02 1,698,411 613,552 +0.55 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 g4-g3 a4-a5 g5-g4 e1-e2 Ke5-d5 b4-b5 Kd5-c5
17 00:04 2,772,573 621,060 +0.57 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 b8-b7 a4-a5 g4-g3 b1-b2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 b4-b5 Nf6-d7 a5-a6
17 00:04 2,899,143 620,633 +0.57 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 b8-b7 a4-a5 g4-g3 b1-b2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 b4-b5 Nf6-d7 a5-a6
18 00:05 3,729,447 626,551 +0.54 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 b8-b7 a4-a5 g4-g3 b1-b2 Ke5-d5 e1-e2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 b2-b3
18 00:06 4,277,004 628,750 +0.54 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 c2-c3 Nh7-f6 f2-f3 b8-b7 a4-a5 g4-g3 b1-b2 Ke5-d5 e1-e2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4 b2-b3
19 00:08 5,641,278 632,890 +0.56 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 b1-b2 c7-c6 c2-c3 f4-f3 e1-e2 Ke5-f4 e2xf3 g4xf3 h2-h3 b8-b7 Kg1-h2 c6-c5
19 00:09 6,223,586 631,031 +0.56 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 b1-b2 c7-c6 c2-c3 f4-f3 e1-e2 Ke5-f4 e2xf3 g4xf3 h2-h3 b8-b7 Kg1-h2 c6-c5
20 00:14 9,456,770 634,561 +0.52 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 b1-b2 c7-c6 c2-c3 f4-f3 e1-e2 Ke5-f4 e2xf3 g4xf3 h2-h3 b8-b7 Kg1-h2 c6-c5 g2-g3+ Kf4-e5 g3xh4
20 00:16 10,638,317 636,340 +0.52 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 e5-e4 d2-d4 e4xd3/ep e2xd3 Kf6-e5 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 b1-b2 c7-c6 c2-c3 f4-f3 e1-e2 Ke5-f4 e2xf3 g4xf3 h2-h3 b8-b7 Kg1-h2 c6-c5 g2-g3+ Kf4-e5 g3xh4
21 00:29 19,013,494 636,185 +0.47 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a5-a6 d6-d5 a1-a2 Ke6-d6 a2-a4 Kd6-c6 b4-b5+ Kc6-b6 b1-b2 c7-c6 b5xc6 Kb6xa6 b2-b4 Ka6-b6 b4-b5 Kb6-a5 d2-d4 e5xd4 f2-f3 Ka5xa4 b5-b6
21 00:38 24,619,083 637,895 +0.47 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a5-a6 d6-d5 a1-a2 Ke6-d6 a2-a4 Kd6-c6 b4-b5+ Kc6-b6 b1-b2 c7-c6 b5xc6 Kb6xa6 b2-b4 Ka6-b6 b4-b5 Kb6-a5 d2-d4 e5xd4 f2-f3 Ka5xa4 b5-b6
22 00:48 30,777,182 639,157 +0.51 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a5-a6 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 e5-e4 a1-a2 e4xd3 e2xd3 Kd5-d4 b4-b5 Nf6-d5 b1-b2 c7-c6 b5xc6 Kd4-c5 c2-c3 Kc5xc6 a2-a4 Kc6-b6 f2-f3 g4xf3 g2xf3 Nd5-e3
22 00:51 33,046,526 639,519 +0.51 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a5-a6 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 e5-e4 a1-a2 e4xd3 e2xd3 Kd5-d4 b4-b5 Nf6-d5 b1-b2 c7-c6 b5xc6 Kd4-c5 c2-c3 Kc5xc6 a2-a4 Kc6-b6 f2-f3 g4xf3 g2xf3 Nd5-e3
23 01:36 61,723,737 638,139 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 d6-d5 c2-c3 d5-d4 c3xd4 e5xd4 a2-a3 Nf6-d5 c1-c2 Ke6-e5 b1-b2 c7-c6 e2-e3 f4xe3 d2xe3 Nd5-c7 e3xd4+ Ke5xd4 f2-f3 g4xf3 g2xf3 g5-g4
23 01:37 62,239,135 638,110 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 d6-d5 c2-c3 d5-d4 c3xd4 e5xd4 a2-a3 Nf6-d5 c1-c2 Ke6-e5 b1-b2 c7-c6 e2-e3 f4xe3 d2xe3 Nd5-c7 e3xd4+ Ke5xd4 f2-f3 g4xf3 g2xf3 g5-g4
24 02:29 95,134,033 636,984 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 Kd5-d4 d1-d2 e5-e4 e2-e3+ Kd4-e5 d3xe4 f5xe4 c2-c3 c7-c6 g2-g3 f4-f3 a5-a6 h4xg3 f2xg3 Nf6-e8 Kg1-f2 Ne8-c7 a2-a4 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
24 02:31 96,476,209 637,051 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 Kd5-d4 d1-d2 e5-e4 e2-e3+ Kd4-e5 d3xe4 f5xe4 c2-c3 c7-c6 g2-g3 f4-f3 a5-a6 h4xg3 f2xg3 Nf6-e8 Kg1-f2 Ne8-c7 a2-a4 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
25 03:12 123,077,421 638,523 +0.51 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 e5-e4 c2-c3 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 c7-c6 d3xe4+ f5xe4 d1-d2 Kd5-e5 b1-b2 b8-b7 e2-e3 f4-f3 c3-c4 h4-h3 g2xf3 g4xf3 b4-b5 c6xb5 c4xb5 h5-h4 a5-a6
25 03:37 139,138,928 640,427 +0.51 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 e5-e4 c2-c3 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 c7-c6 d3xe4+ f5xe4 d1-d2 Kd5-e5 b1-b2 b8-b7 e2-e3 f4-f3 c3-c4 h4-h3 g2xf3 g4xf3 b4-b5 c6xb5 c4xb5 h5-h4 a5-a6
26 04:38 178,608,348 641,216 +0.57 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 e5-e4 a1-a2 c7-c6 d3xe4+ f5xe4 d1-d2 Kd5-e5 b1-b2 Ke5-d5 d2-d3 e4xd3 e2xd3 Kd5-e5 e1-e2 c6-c5 b4xc5 d6xc5 d3-d4+ Ke5-d5 d4xc5 Kd5xc5 f2-f3 g4-g3 b2-b4+ Kc5-c4
26 04:46 184,045,833 641,539 +0.57 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 e5-e4 a1-a2 c7-c6 d3xe4+ f5xe4 d1-d2 Kd5-e5 b1-b2 Ke5-d5 d2-d3 e4xd3 e2xd3 Kd5-e5 e1-e2 c6-c5 b4xc5 d6xc5 d3-d4+ Ke5-d5 d4xc5 Kd5xc5 f2-f3 g4-g3 b2-b4+ Kc5-c4
27 10:01 384,654,460 639,862 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 e5-e4 a1-a2 f4-f3 a5-a6 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 Nf6-d7 c3-c4+ Kd5-d4 c1-c2 Nd7-b6 b4-b5 Nb6-a4 d1-d2 Na4-b2 a2-a3 Kd4-c5 g2xf3 g4xf3 e2xf3 e4xf3 e1-e2 d6-d5 e2xf3 d5xc4
27 10:02 385,779,212 639,830 +0.60 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 e5-e4 a1-a2 f4-f3 a5-a6 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 Nf6-d7 c3-c4+ Kd5-d4 c1-c2 Nd7-b6 b4-b5 Nb6-a4 d1-d2 Na4-b2 a2-a3 Kd4-c5 g2xf3 g4xf3 e2xf3 e4xf3 e1-e2 d6-d5 e2xf3 d5xc4
28 22:19 845,868,501 631,725 +0.62 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 e5-e4 a1-a2 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 h4-h3 b4-b5 Nf6-d7 b1-b2 f4-f3 e2xf3 g4xf3 d3xe4+ f5xe4 b2-b3 g5-g4 a5-a6 Kd5-c5 a2-a4 Nd7-e5 g2xh3 g4xh3 Nh1-g3 d6-d5 e1-e2 h5-h4 Ng3-h1
28 22:21 847,742,140 631,748 +0.62 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 a2-a4 Kf6-e6 a4-a5 Nh7-f6 c2-c3 e5-e4 a1-a2 Ke6-d5 d2-d3 h4-h3 b4-b5 Nf6-d7 b1-b2 f4-f3 e2xf3 g4xf3 d3xe4+ f5xe4 b2-b3 g5-g4 a5-a6 Kd5-c5 a2-a4 Nd7-e5 g2xh3 g4xh3 Nh1-g3 d6-d5 e1-e2 h5-h4 Ng3-h1

Still, the main line given shows it as being pretty clueless of what to do.

StockFish 2.1.1 analysis is giving a large, but decreasing with the depth advantage for black:

FEN: 1p6/2p3kn/3p2pp/4pppp/5ppp/8/PPPPPPPP/PPPPPPKN w - - 0 1

Stockfish-211-64-ja:
1/1 00:00 79 0 -4.40 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Nf8-e6 d1-d2 d6-d5 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 c2-c3 c7-c5 c1-c2 c5xb4 c3xb4
2/2 00:00 140 140,000 -4.84 a2-a4 Nh7-f6
3/3 00:00 252 126,000 -4.80 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 d2-d3 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 h5-h4 d1-d2 f5-f4 a4-a5 Kg7-f7 c2-c4
4/4 00:00 492 164,000 -4.80 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 d2-d3 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 h5-h4 d1-d2 f5-f4 a4-a5 Kg7-f7 c2-c4
5/5 00:00 827 206,750 -4.76 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 a4-a5 h4-h3
6/6 00:00 1,676 279,333 -4.32 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 d2-d3 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 Nh1xg3 h5-h4
7/10 00:00 2,551 318,875 -4.28 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 d2-d3 g4-g3 d1-d2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 g5-g4
8/12 00:00 7,654 510,266 -3.63 a2-a4 Kg7-f7 a1-a2 Nh7-f8 c2-c3 b8-b7 c1-c2 Nf8-e6
9/12 00:00 12,522 626,100 -3.63 a2-a4 Nh7-f8 a1-a2 Nf8-e6 b2-b3 b8-b7 b1-b2 Kg7-f6 a4-a5 h4-h3 a2-a4 h5-h4
10/13 00:00 19,308 715,111 -3.39 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 g4-g3 h2xg3 Kg7-f7 d1-d2 f4xg3 f2xg3 Kf7-e6 f1-f2 f5-f4 g3xh4 g5xh4 c2-c4
11/14 00:00 31,646 703,244 -3.19 a2-a4 Nh7-f8 a1-a2 Nf8-e6 d2-d3 Kg7-f7 d1-d2 b8-b7 b2-b4 c7-c5 b1-b2 c5xb4
12/17 00:00 146,733 858,087 -2.74 a2-a4 Nh7-f8 a1-a2 Nf8-d7 d2-d3 Nd7-b6 b2-b3 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 d1-d2 g3xh2+ Kg1xh2 b8-b7 b1-b2
13/21 00:00 303,584 882,511 -2.74 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 e5-e4 d2-d3 e4xd3 c2xd3 g4-g3 h2xg3 f4xg3 c1-c2 b8-b7 d1-d2
14/21 00:00 625,997 939,935 -2.30 a2-a4 Nh7-f6 a1-a2 b8-b7 d2-d3 Kg7-f8 d1-d2 d6-d5 b2-b4 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 b1-b2
15/21 00:00 790,182 942,937 -2.38 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 d6-d5 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 d1-d2 e5-e4 c2-c4 Kf6-e5 c4xd5 Nh7-f6 c1-c2 Nf6xd5 c2-c4 Nd5-f6 a4-a5 Ke5-d4 d3xe4 f5xe4
16/21 00:00 924,304 942,205 -2.38 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 d6-d5 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 d1-d2 e5-e4 c2-c4 Kf6-e5 c4xd5 Nh7-f6 c1-c2 Nf6xd5 c2-c4 Nd5-f6 a4-a5 Ke5-d4 d3xe4 f5xe4
17/23 00:02 2,699,285 924,096 -2.22 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Nf8-e6 d1-d2 d6-d5 b2-b4 Kg7-f6 c2-c3 c7-c5 c1-c2
18/26 00:05 4,892,455 908,871 -2.18 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 e5-e4 c2-c4 Nh7-f8 c1-c2 Nf8-e6 d2-d3 e4xd3 d1-d2 d3xe2 f1xe2 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 h4-h3 g2xh3 g4xh3 b1-b2 Ne6-d4 c2-c3 Nd4xe2+ Kg1-f1
19/29 00:22 19,913,890 891,241 -2.02 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Nf8-e6 d1-d2 e5-e4 c2-c3 Ne6-c5 b2-b3 e4xd3 c1-c2 d3xc2 b1xc2 Kg7-f6 a4-a5 Nc5-e6 d2-d4
20/29 01:11 61,826,832 865,631 -1.77 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Kg7-f6 d2-d3 e5-e4 d1-d2 d6-d5 c2-c4 Kf6-e5 c1-c2 Nh7-f6 b2-b3 e4xd3 c2xd3 g4-g3 h2xg3 f4xg3 b1-b2 d5xc4 b3xc4
21/29 01:55 99,541,617 861,354 -1.65 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 h4xg3 f1-f2 h5-h4 d1-d2 f5-f4 c2-c4 h6-h5 c1-c2 Kg7-f7 a4-a5 Kf7-e6 Kg1-f1
22/30 02:52 148,444,060 860,046 -1.57 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 Nf6-d7 d1-d2 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 e5-e4 c2-c4 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 e4xd3 c1-c2 d3xe2 f1xe2
23/32 06:13 320,076,434 857,121 -1.49 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 e5-e4 c2-c4 Nh7-f6 c1-c2 d6-d5 c4xd5 Nf6xd5 d2-d3 Kg7-f6 d1-d2 Kf6-e5 d3xe4 f5xe4 f2-f3 e4xf3 e2xf3
24/33 09:01 463,213,658 855,507 -1.37 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 d6-d5 d1-d2 e5-e4 c2-c4 e4xd3 c4xd5 d3xe2 f1xe2 Nf6xd5 c1-c2 Kg7-f6 b2-b3 Kf6-e5 Kg1-f1 g4-g3 h2xg3
25/47 22:20 1,136,070,325 847,623 -1.13 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 e5-e4 d1-d2 b7-b6 c2-c4 e4xd3 c1-c2 d3xc2 b1xc2 Kg7-f7 f2-f3 Kf7-e6 f1-f2 Ke6-e5 f3xg4 f5xg4 Kg1-f1
26/47 37:52 1,907,725,347 839,318 -1.05 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f6 d2-d3 e5-e4 d1-d2 b7-b6 c2-c4 e4xd3 c1-c2 d3xc2 b1xc2 Kg7-f7 f2-f3 Nf6-d7 f1-f2 Nd7-e5 f3xg4 f5xg4 b2-b3 Ne5-c6 c2-c3 Kf7-f6
27/47 44:20 2,230,663,016 838,400 -1.01 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4
28/47 48:55 2,462,594,339 838,931 -1.01 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4 b2-b3 h5-h4
29/47 57:21 2,896,395,002 841,627 -1.01 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4 b2-b3 h5-h4
30/47 1:08:55 3,482,291,619 842,050 -1.01 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 g4-g3 f2xg3 f4xg3 h2xg3 h4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4 b2-b3 h5-h4
31/47 1:53:11 5,735,091,322 844,416 -1.01 a2-a4 g4-g3 f2xg3 h4xg3 h2xg3 f4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4 a1-a2 h5-h4 d2-d3 Nh7-f8 d1-d2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Kg7-g8 c1-c2 b8-b7 f2xg3 f4xg3
32/47 2:17:48 7,005,265,719 847,209 -1.01 a2-a4 g4-g3 f2xg3 h4xg3 h2xg3 f4xg3 f1-f2 f5-f4 a1-a2 h5-h4 d2-d3 b8-b7 d1-d2 Kg7-f6 c2-c4 Kf6-f5 c1-c2 Kf5-g4 f2-f3+ Kg4-h5 e2-e3 g5-g4 e1-e2 h4-h3 b2-b4
33/52 5:33:09 16,944,807,586 847,677 -0.84 a2-a4 b8-b7 a1-a2 Nh7-f8 d2-d3 Nf8-e6 d1-d2 e5-e4 c2-c3 e4xd3 e2xd3 Ne6-c5 e1-e2 Nc5xa4 b2-b3 Na4-c5 c1-c2 f4-f3 b1-b2 Nc5-e6 e2-e3

Pretty clueless too in the main line.

When I pit StockFish against Komodo, not taking into account the Komodo quits, they are pretty equal. But I have to see the reason of the quits (something about the promotion on some occasions, for both sides, therefore not affecting very much the average score, if I am not wrong).

Kai

Laskos · Post by **Laskos** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Now Komodo 5.1 is the new champion.

Shortly:
I proposed possibly a viable game, which uses mostly the rules and pieces of standard chess, as much as chess engines like Stockfish 3 and Komodo 5.1 can play it. Basically I change the starting position and the starting set of pieces, the rest being the same. Many (most) engines will refuse to play with pawns on the first rank or with more than 8 pawns, but there are _chess_ engines which do play this game.

The starting postion is:

[d]

Spartans are white, in their standard formation, having the King (always on the right wing in Sparta), a Knight (Hippeis), and 14 pawns, a homogenous phalanx.

Thebans are black, in their formation of Pelopidas and Epaminondas against the Spartans. The King and the Knight (Sacred Band) are on the left flank, the 12 pawns are forming a deep column opposing the Spartan King, and the phalnax in echelon formation.

These two formations are pretty historically accurate, with Thebans in numerical inferiority (12 pawns against 14).

Pieces are all the same as in the standard chess.

This was the proposal, and now Komodo 5.1 seems to beat the crap out of Stockfish 3, the previous champion, and is the new champion of the game:

Code: Select all

Games Completed = 100 of 100 (Avg game length = 10.729 sec)
Settings = RR/16MB/100ms per move/M 400000cp for 1000 moves, D 120000 moves/EPD:C:\Theba.epd(1)
Time = 1264 sec elapsed, 0 sec remaining
 1.  Stockfish 3 JA 64bit     	14.0/100	10-82-8  	(L: m=82 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=3 i=2 f=2 s=1 a=0)	(tpm=106.2 d=14.97 nps=344814)
 2.  Komodo 5.1 64-bit        	86.0/100	82-10-8  	(L: m=10 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=3 i=2 f=2 s=1 a=0)	(tpm=119.8 d=12.49 nps=382748)

Typical 2 games, Komodo winning both with black and white:
[pgn] [White "Stockfish 3 JA 64bit SSE4.2"]
[Black "Komodo 5.1 64-bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1p6/2p3kn/3p2pp/4pppp/5ppp/8/PPPPPPPP/PPPPPPKN w - - 0 0"]

1. a4 Kf6 2. a5 c5 3. a6 Nf8 4. f3 Ne6 5. fxg4 hxg4 6. e4 fxe4 7. Nf2 Kf5 8. d3 exd3 9. cxd3 d5 10. d4 Nxd4 11. Nd3 Ne6 12. b4 c4 13. Nc5 Nxc5 14. bxc5 Ke6 15. b2 Kd7 16. f2 Kc6 17. Kf1 Kxc5 18. Ke2 Kb5 19. a2 Kxa6 20. c2 Kb5 21. a3 Kc5 22. Kd2 d4 23. c3 f3 24. gxf3 gxf3 25. Kc1 dxc3 26. bxc3 Kd5 27. Kd2 Ke4 28. e2 Kf4 29. Ke1 g4 30. d2 g3 31. hxg3+ hxg3 32. e3+ Kg4 33. fxg3 Kxg3 34. a4 h5 35. e4 h4 36. d4 cxd3 37. Kd2 f2 38. Kxd3 f1=Q+ 39. Kc2 h3 40. Kb3 h2 41. Kb4 h1=Q 42. c4 Qxe4 43. Kc5 Qfxc4+ 44. Kd6 Qc7+ 45. Ke6 Qec6+ 0-1

[White "Komodo 5.1 64-bit"]
[Black "Stockfish 3 JA 64bit SSE4.2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1p6/2p3kn/3p2pp/4pppp/5ppp/8/PPPPPPPP/PPPPPPKN w - - 0 0"]

1. d3 Nf6 2. a4 Kf7 3. c4 Ke6 4. f3 g3 5. b4 gxh2+ 6. Kxh2 g4 7. b5 gxf3 8. gxf3 g5 9. Kh3 Ng8 10. a2 Ne7 11. a5 Ng6 12. a6 g4+ 13. Kg2 Nf8 14. c2 Nh7 15. f2 Ng5 16. b2 h3+ 17. Kg1 h4 18. Kh2 Ke7 19. a3 Ke6 20. b3 Kf6 21. c3 Ke6 22. a4 Kf6 23. d4 e4 24. fxg4 fxg4 25. c5 dxc5 26. dxc5 e3 27. c6 Kf5 28. c4 Ke5 29. d2 g3+ 30. Nxg3 hxg3+ 31. fxg3 fxg3+ 32. Kxg3 Ne4+ 33. Kxh3 Kd4 34. b6 cxb6 35. c7 exd2 36. exd2 bxc7 37. a7 Nxd2 38. a8=Q Nxb3 39. Qc6 Na5 40. Qxc7 Nxc4 41. Qg7+ Kd5 42. Qxh6 Kc5 43. Qh5+ Kd4 44. Qb5 Kc3 45. Kg3 Kd4 46. e4 Ne3 47. Qxb6+ Kxe4 48. Qxe3+ Kxe3 49. a5 Kd2 50. a6 Kc2 51. a7 Kb1 52. a8=Q Kc2 53. Qf3 Kb2 54. Qd3 Ka1 55. Qa3+ Kb1 56. Qe3 Kc2 57. Kf3 Kb2 58. Ke4 Ka2 59. Qb6 Ka3 60. Kd4 Ka4 61. Kc4 Ka3 62. Qb3+ 1-0[/pgn]

gbtami · Post by **gbtami** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:54 am

Thx for updating this old thread! Just added this nice variant to PyChess.

Laskos · Post by **Laskos** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 pm

gbtami wrote:Thx for updating this old thread! Just added this nice variant to PyChess.

I have a small rating list for some strong UCI chess engines admitting this variant.

Code: Select all

Games Completed = 200 of 200 (Avg game length = 19.043 sec)
Settings = RR/16MB/200ms per move/M 400000cp for 1000 moves, D 120000 moves/EPD:C:\Theban.epd(1)
Time = 4213 sec elapsed, 0 sec remaining
 1.  Komodo 5.1 64-bit        	65.0/80	64-14-2  	(L: m=14 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=2 i=0 f=0 s=0 a=0)	(tpm=244.5 d=11.55 nps=355140)
 2.  DiscoCheck 4.3           	54.5/80	53-24-3  	(L: m=24 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=2 i=1 f=0 s=0 a=0)	(tpm=193.6 d=16.71 nps=0)
 3.  Stockfish 3 JA 64bit     	49.5/80	47-28-5  	(L: m=28 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=4 i=1 f=0 s=0 a=0)	(tpm=262.7 d=17.07 nps=357234)
 4.  Hannibal 1.3x64           	9.5/80	 8-69-3  	(L: m=69 t=0 i=0 a=0)	(D: r=3 i=0 f=0 s=0 a=0)	(tpm=187.8 d=11.07 nps=509876)
 5.  LittleThought v1.052     	21.5/80	20-57-3  	(L: m=55 t=0 i=2 a=0)	(D: r=3 i=0 f=0 s=0 a=0)	(tpm=198.7 d=11.67 nps=455163)

Ratings using Ordo

Code: Select all

   # ENGINE                         : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)

   1 Komodo 5.1 64-bit              : 2258.0      65.0      80   81.3%
   2 DiscoCheck 4.3                 : 2149.5      54.5      80   68.1%
   3 Stockfish 3 JA 64bit SSE4.2    : 2101.2      49.5      80   61.9%
   4 LittleThought v1.052           : 1819.8      21.5      80   26.9%
   5 Hannibal 1.3x64                : 1671.6       9.5      80   11.9%

And the game is balanced white-black

Code: Select all

Games        :    200 (finished)

White Wins   :     98 (49.0 %)
Black Wins   :     94 (47.0 %)
Draws        :      8 ( 4.0 %)
Unfinished   :      0

White Perf.  : 51.0 %
Black Perf.  : 49.0 %

Laskos · Post by **Laskos** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:47 pm

WCTCC (World Computer Theban Chess Championship) held on 8/18/2013 on a core of a netbook (equal software), by Kai Laskos (on a vacation) who is affiliated to UN, by the "Freedom of Association" invoked in UN articles 20 and 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

11 out of top 100 _chess_ engines, 11 engines admitting Theban variant, 20x Round Robin from 40 openings positions.

Code: Select all

   # ENGINE                         : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)

   1 Komodo 5.1 64-bit              : 2000.0     175.0     200   87.5%
   2 DiscoCheck 4.3                 : 1947.5     168.0     200   84.0%
   3 Stockfish 3 JA 64bit           : 1856.3     154.5     200   77.3%
   4 Quazar 0.4 x64                 : 1809.0     147.0     200   73.5%
   5 Arasan 16.0                    : 1644.4     119.5     200   59.8%
   6 Alfil 13.1 x64 MT              : 1477.1      90.5     200   45.3%
   7 LittleThought v1.052           : 1448.6      85.5     200   42.8%
   8 Delfi 5.4                      : 1226.2      47.5     200   23.8%
   9 SOS 5 for Arena                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  10 Hannibal 1.3x64                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  11 Protector 1.5.0 x64            : 1026.1      19.5     200    9.8%

Komodo 5.1 is declared the Champion in Computer Theban Chess and will benefit from Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Conventions 87 and 98 of the International Labour.

Milos · Post by **Milos** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:52 pm

Laskos wrote:WCTCC (World Computer Theban Chess Championship) held on 8/18/2013 on a core of a netbook (equal software), by Kai Laskos (on a vacation) who is affiliated to UN, by the "Freedom of Association" invoked in UN articles 20 and 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

11 out of top 100 _chess_ engines, 11 engines admitting Theban variant, 20x Round Robin.
Code: Select all
   # ENGINE                         : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)

   1 Komodo 5.1 64-bit              : 2000.0     175.0     200   87.5%
   2 DiscoCheck 4.3                 : 1947.5     168.0     200   84.0%
   3 Stockfish 3 JA 64bit           : 1856.3     154.5     200   77.3%
   4 Quazar 0.4 x64                 : 1809.0     147.0     200   73.5%
   5 Arasan 16.0                    : 1644.4     119.5     200   59.8%
   6 Alfil 13.1 x64 MT              : 1477.1      90.5     200   45.3%
   7 LittleThought v1.052           : 1448.6      85.5     200   42.8%
   8 Delfi 5.4                      : 1226.2      47.5     200   23.8%
   9 SOS 5 for Arena                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  10 Hannibal 1.3x64                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  11 Protector 1.5.0 x64            : 1026.1      19.5     200    9.8%
Komodo 5.1 is declared the Champion in Computer Theban Chess and will benefit from Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Conventions 87 and 98 of the International Labour.

You should change the title of the thread, or make a separate thread with this last post, naming it WCTCC World Champion

.

Laskos · Post by **Laskos** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:56 pm

Milos wrote:
Laskos wrote:WCTCC (World Computer Theban Chess Championship) held on 8/18/2013 on a core of a netbook (equal software), by Kai Laskos (on a vacation) who is affiliated to UN, by the "Freedom of Association" invoked in UN articles 20 and 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

11 out of top 100 _chess_ engines, 11 engines admitting Theban variant, 20x Round Robin.
Code: Select all
   # ENGINE                         : RATING    POINTS  PLAYED    (%)

   1 Komodo 5.1 64-bit              : 2000.0     175.0     200   87.5%
   2 DiscoCheck 4.3                 : 1947.5     168.0     200   84.0%
   3 Stockfish 3 JA 64bit           : 1856.3     154.5     200   77.3%
   4 Quazar 0.4 x64                 : 1809.0     147.0     200   73.5%
   5 Arasan 16.0                    : 1644.4     119.5     200   59.8%
   6 Alfil 13.1 x64 MT              : 1477.1      90.5     200   45.3%
   7 LittleThought v1.052           : 1448.6      85.5     200   42.8%
   8 Delfi 5.4                      : 1226.2      47.5     200   23.8%
   9 SOS 5 for Arena                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  10 Hannibal 1.3x64                : 1220.0      46.5     200   23.3%
  11 Protector 1.5.0 x64            : 1026.1      19.5     200    9.8%
Komodo 5.1 is declared the Champion in Computer Theban Chess and will benefit from Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Conventions 87 and 98 of the International Labour.
You should change the title of the thread, or make a separate thread with this last post, naming it WCTCC World Champion .

I thought that too, but I didn't want to anger the ICGA sclerotic sycophants and other dinosaurs.

Theban Chess

Re: Theban Chess

Re: Theban Chess

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Re: Theban Chess