It walks like a clone, it quacks like a clone ...

[MikeB]

It also comes with a unique net (NNUE) by Albert Silver and some helpers that is not available anywhere else. The net size is about double the standard SF 20MB size net.

it's not so much unique because it's double the Sf size, but
more because it's apparently made from Lco games,
and as we know (eg. earlier from Alfazero games) the
Lco evals and thus resulting positions, were different from SF.
In other word (although i've not bought it so i cant test it), maybe
AS made a smart (sub)project, but then 'sold' it in a horrible way...

As for SF, if you train a network based on SF games, then you
probably get an SF type of evalution, my 2 cnts.
Maybe indeed this Nnue is some paradigm change (quoting HGM)
although obviously SF (besides the 'old' eval) still has
some awfully good search features.

Time for a new Nnue, Sf guys ?


PS wehereb i still maintain that engine eval should have an extra
additional parameter, namely, 'sharpness'. Against lower rated opponents
you (or the engine) can/should increase 'sharpness' of play (any strong chess
player knows this btw), and only then we might see some unbalanced positions rising just from engine play rather from the (oldfashioned) opening books..

www.superchess.blogspot.com

I left out the word "Also", meant to write "Also, the net size is about double the standard SF 20MB size net." so I appreciate the clarification you made. It is more accurate.

[JVMerlino]

Ah, so yet another in a long list of SF derivatives, but this one being sold illegally. Got it. Thanks!

[Graham Banks]

I guess people really don't care and that may be the best response.... on many different levels...

what do you want then?
I expressed my opinion on several occasions so it's clear (argued with Graham, went too far).

FF2? yes, not happy about it. legal? yes

boycotting CCRL? nonsense

I'm not sure why you of all people are so upset about FF2, considering you made more (legit) SF clones than anyone else.

No problem from my end, Martin.
I realize that tempers can rise now and then over these issues.
New tourney with Cheng in starting today.

[Koivisto]

Almost no discussion that is relevant to development of chess engines goes on in this forum, why should we be active here? Talkchess really is not the centre of the chessprogramming world.

Maybe you're right, if you know everything that is to know about chess programming.

What is this illustrious place outside of Talkchess, where all the relevant discussions do take place?

Maybe this forum? http://outskirts.altervista.org/forum/

I don't know... without actually registering, I can't actually read anything there, but it does seem to have a lot of members.

For us most of the discussions happen in various discord chats.

[mvanthoor]

For us most of the discussions happen in various discord chats.

OK. What are those discussions about then? Can I read them somewhere just as easily as I can with the ones on Talkchess... back in history for about 25 years? When I look through the programmer's forum here, I mostly see discussions about bitboards, search algorithms, evaluation functions, and so on... but it could be that this is not about chess programming anymore just because it's old stuff that has been around for 50 years.

It feels as if "us" is sitting on a high horse. Be careful so you don't fall off.

[mvanthoor]

(accidental double post)

[Daniel Anulliero]

Well
Can't explain exactly my feeling because of my bad english
But I agree largerly with the first post of Mvanthoor.
People test what they want.
People buy what they want .
I don't care Who is on the top lists.
CCRL is a good reference to take sparring partners for testing.
Graham run many funs tournaments , good to watch your engine in live , friendly fight
It remind me the good old days of Leo's WBEC or Olivier's ChessWar.
Chess is just a game , there are (too) many serious or bad things to think about in 2021 : covid, wars, personnal health problems , money etc...
The hobby is very good to forget these...
Now I'm trying to write a new Isa , plain bitboard , from scratch , with the precious help of chess wiki , I'm reinvent the wheel , every day lol but it is fun to learning new things every time.
Have fun with our hobby , take chess as it is : a game .

[mvanthoor]

Now I'm trying to write a new Isa , plain bitboard , from scratch , with the precious help of chess wiki , I'm reinvent the wheel , every day lol but it is fun to learning new things every time.
Have fun with our hobby , take chess as it is : a game .

Indeed. The only people for whom chess is not a game, is the first 100 players on the world ranking list. I would be surprised if many people below the top 100 would be able to earn a living by only playing chess. I think they have to do side things such as teaching, writing books, etc.

With regard to chess programming: apart from a few user interfaces such as Fritz/Chessbase/Aquarium/ChessPartner, everything is open source, and you have choice of a plethora of engines and GUI's. There is no 'need' to write anything else, for a lone programmer; the only reason to do it is because you want to, as a hobby.

[Koivisto]

For us most of the discussions happen in various discord chats.

OK. What are those discussions about then? Can I read them somewhere just as easily as I can with the ones on Talkchess... back in history for about 25 years? When I look through the programmer's forum here, I mostly see discussions about bitboards, search algorithms, evaluation functions, and so on... but it could be that this is not about chess programming anymore just because it's old stuff that has been around for 50 years.

It feels as if "us" is sitting on a high horse. Be careful so you don't fall off.

By us I meant the Koivisto team...

Ps. Please be kind sir

[mar]

Ps. Please be kind sir

huh? perpetrator playing victim, seems pretty standard these days

let me refresh your memory, you wrote this:

Almost no discussion that is relevant to development of chess engines goes on in this forum, why should we be active here? Talkchess really is not the centre of the chessprogramming world.

with about 20 posts total and exactly 0 posts in the programming subforum
have you ever visited there? have you ever responded to or helped someone there?

posts like yours aren't "kind" or even useful

seems like a typical Dunning-Kruger to me

to sum up: I don't give a shit about you or your Koivisto team, "sir"