Komodo Dragon vs IM Andras Toth knight odds match.

[Chessqueen]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

[Chessqueen]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

[lkaufman]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

Remember it's Armageddon scoring, so if he wins 3, loses 1, and draws 2, that would be 4 to 2 by normal scoring by 3 to 3 when draws count as wins for the odds-giver. That's why I rate it a toss-up.

[Chessqueen]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

Remember it's Armageddon scoring, so if he wins 3, loses 1, and draws 2, that would be 4 to 2 by normal scoring by 3 to 3 when draws count as wins for the odds-giver. That's why I rate it a toss-up.

I almost forgot that, in that case it will be very close. I can not wait to hear IM Andras comments once more. Next Saturday you will be entertained by the most funny chess player on this Planet IM Andras Toth. Here are some of his comments while playing a practice game versus the free version of komodo 11. I will quote his comments " This is fun! I do not like to give up an inch Ha ha Ha not only I am smarter and have more chess knowledge but I am faster too. That would be goody (meaning pleasant exciting). Trade, trade, trade. I am going to trade Dude, because I have a piece more, that would be goody. I am giving Komodo too much Air. I am really tempted to take this piece or even that piece. You are dead buddy, you will die. Gee Gee on your Back, Oh Boy I am enjoying myself beating this silly Dragon. Okay give me that pony. I am soo reading the computer mind, that if I can predict the winning lottery numbers the way I can predict Komodo moves, I would be a Rich man."

[Chessqueen]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

Remember it's Armageddon scoring, so if he wins 3, loses 1, and draws 2, that would be 4 to 2 by normal scoring by 3 to 3 when draws count as wins for the odds-giver. That's why I rate it a toss-up.

I do not know exactly what year did you started giving human odds with Komodo, but I would like to know how fast are engines or should I ask how many years it took Komodo to go from giving 1 pawn odds to two pawns and now you are trying a Knight odds against an IM. ? Of course it all depends on what time control we are dealing with, but at 2'+1 Armageddon you can probably give IM Andras Toth a RooK odds nowadays.

[lkaufman]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

Remember it's Armageddon scoring, so if he wins 3, loses 1, and draws 2, that would be 4 to 2 by normal scoring by 3 to 3 when draws count as wins for the odds-giver. That's why I rate it a toss-up.

I do not know exactly what year did you started giving human odds with Komodo, but I would like to know how fast are engines or should I ask how many years it took Komodo to go from giving 1 pawn odds to two pawns and now you are trying a Knight odds against an IM. ? Of course it all depends on what time control we are dealing with, but at 2'+1 Armageddon you can probably give IM Andras Toth a RooK odds nowadays.

The first games on record where engines gave odds to a titled human player were in (or near) 2005, when the three top engines (maybe Fruit, Shredder, and Fritz or Hiarcs, I forget) each gave a White pawn handicap (varying) to GM Alex Wojkevich at some fairly slow Rapid time limit (maybe 45' + 15", I forget; I ran the match at my home, for a Chess Life article. You could find the article for the exact results, it was competitive. In early 2007 Rybka gave a White pawn (all 8) to GM Ehlvest at my home at 45' + 15", winning 5.5 to 2.5. In the summer it won more narrowly from Joel Benjamin the same way but with alternating colors. In the fall it split 4 to 4 with Dzindzi giving each of the eight Black pawns. In 2008 it narrowly beat Dzindzi giving f7 odds at a faster Rapid time limit. Two pawn odds were first offered by Komodo in 2015. We lost the first match badly (f2 + c2) to a rather low-rated GM, but did quite well in all subsequent matches at two pawn odds. The first match victory against a master at knight odds in Rapid was against FM Larry Gilden in or near 2018, but he was only about FIDE 2050 due to old age. We have had drawn or narrowly won matches at knight odds against players in the 2200 to 2300 FIDE range, but never above 2300.

[Chessqueen]

Larry have you done any study about how much each piece/pawn(with file) odds are worth based on all the handicap matches Komodo played?

Well, it's hard to do a rigorous study since opponents and time limits are constantly changing, as well as the version of Komodo being used, but i have some general conclusions about the values (in the opening position) in these matches. The clearest conclusion is that the value of the (a1) rook is a bit less than 1.5 knights, let's say about 1.4 knights. Rook pawns are worth something like just half a (nonrook) pawn, primarily due to the immediate rook activity. f and g pawns are worth significantly more than the other four (bcde) (which are close in value). And knights are worth about four average pawns. That's about as precise as I can get with the varied conditions. Only a few games with queen for pieces odds, which suggest that the queen is somewhere between two rooks and three minors in value, so maybe about 2.9 x knight.

I was wondering and also a little concern, if you feed the first 4 moves of this game to Komodo Dragon2 MCTS what % percentage of the moves would be identical to the moves made by Komodo 11 free version that IM Andras used for this practice game, would you say at least 20% of the moves would be identical, even if you use your best computer Mr. Kaufman?

[pgn][Event "Practice Game"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo 11"]
[Black "Andras Toth"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2375"]
[Time "11:52:20"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[TimeControl "1200+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "130"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6 3. Bf4 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6.Qb3[/pgn]

Probably well over 50%. But why is this figure significant? Dragon2 MCTS avoids some of the bad moves like 6.c5? and 11.Re1?, so even if 90% were the same it would be a completely different game. Sometimes I play games where the top engines approve of 90% or more of my moves, it doesn't mean I play at 3500 level. It only takes one bad move to ruin a game.

So lets assume that if Komodo Dragon2 MCTS take this game against IM Andras Toth from move 6. and Make a better move like 6. Qb3 do you believe it could still draw ? You or your son should continue this game against your Komodo Dragon2 MCTS and see what happened after 6. Qb3

At T/C of 10'+5" Komodo Dragon2 MCTS could have a real close match but NOT at T/C 15'+10" against IM Andras NOT this year, probably version Dragon3, My prediction is 4 to 2 in favor of IM Andras

Remember it's Armageddon scoring, so if he wins 3, loses 1, and draws 2, that would be 4 to 2 by normal scoring by 3 to 3 when draws count as wins for the odds-giver. That's why I rate it a toss-up.

I do not know exactly what year did you started giving human odds with Komodo, but I would like to know how fast are engines or should I ask how many years it took Komodo to go from giving 1 pawn odds to two pawns and now you are trying a Knight odds against an IM. ? Of course it all depends on what time control we are dealing with, but at 2'+1 Armageddon you can probably give IM Andras Toth a RooK odds nowadays.

The first games on record where engines gave odds to a titled human player were in (or near) 2005, when the three top engines (maybe Fruit, Shredder, and Fritz or Hiarcs, I forget) each gave a White pawn handicap (varying) to GM Alex Wojkevich at some fairly slow Rapid time limit (maybe 45' + 15", I forget; I ran the match at my home, for a Chess Life article. You could find the article for the exact results, it was competitive. In early 2007 Rybka gave a White pawn (all 8) to GM Ehlvest at my home at 45' + 15", winning 5.5 to 2.5. In the summer it won more narrowly from Joel Benjamin the same way but with alternating colors. In the fall it split 4 to 4 with Dzindzi giving each of the eight Black pawns. In 2008 it narrowly beat Dzindzi giving f7 odds at a faster Rapid time limit. Two pawn odds were first offered by Komodo in 2015. We lost the first match badly (f2 + c2) to a rather low-rated GM, but did quite well in all subsequent matches at two pawn odds. The first match victory against a master at knight odds in Rapid was against FM Larry Gilden in or near 2018, but he was only about FIDE 2050 due to old age. We have had drawn or narrowly won matches at knight odds against players in the 2200 to 2300 FIDE range, but never above 2300.

I suppose that in order for Paul Morphy to give Knight odds to Thomas Worrall, he was only rated close to around 2100 in todays FIDE ratings, since I do not believe that Carlsen can give Knight Odds to a 2200 and win with standard time control ==>

[lkaufman]

I suppose that in order for Paul Morphy to give Knight odds to Thomas Worrall, he was only rated close to around 2100 in todays FIDE ratings, since I do not believe that Carlsen can give Knight Odds to a 2200 and win with standard time control ==>

Morphy was able to give knight odds to very good players, notably Charles Maurian who was probably the number 2 active player in US in 1868 (the last year Morphy clearly dominated him at knight odds) behind MacKenzie, and his rating on the Edo website is in the 2400s for that year. But that is relative to the standards of the day. Most likely if he came back to life and played today his FIDE rating would be below 2000. According to a chess.com study, Morphy was the first player in chess history to surpass Elo 2150 by today's standards, based on computer-evaluated game scores.
Fischer said he could give knight odds to any woman in the world in 1961, and (assuming he was talking about Rapid chess) it might have been true that he could have given the World's women's champ a knight, since she wasn't much stronger than 2100 FIDE (well, FIDE ratings started a bit after that). But the next year Gaprindashvili became champ, and she was clearly too strong for that.

[lkaufman]

For a lovely picture promoting the match, go to:

https://apis.mail.aol.com/ws/v3/mailbox ... true&pid=2

[Chessqueen]

For a lovely picture promoting the match, go to:

https://apis.mail.aol.com/ws/v3/mailbox ... true&pid=2

These 9 Opening that IM Andras is most familiar with

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1468080

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009026

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009036

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009052

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1009071

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1192770

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1192778

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1192794

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1192810


IM Andras might be a little surprise to see these two Opening that his is not to familiar with