Why don't strong engines enter WCCC?

[hgm]

I fully disagree with you !!

Or maybe you are joking, right )) ?

I am not an engine developer, but I have a little bit experience in computer chess

Well, that really says it all, doesn't it? Do you really suggest that as a mere user you can judge how much code can be the same between 400-Elo-different versions of the same engine? Have you even ever seen the source code of any program? Whether you agree or disagree is completely immaterial, as you are not qualified to make any judgement at all.

And from my experience I can say,
To improve + 400 Elo...is not so easy as it looks !
If it was so easy...the opponents would not prefer to sign and collect signatures against Vas

I did not say it was easy. Getting the first 2700 Elo was many years of work, even though a large part of that code was just 'run-of-the-mill'. So adding the 10% to get the 3100 would certainly take more than a year as well.

Still means that you got the other 90%/5 years of work that you are passing off as your own for free in no time.

As Pawel testified, he did exactly what you say is impossible. That it was easier for him because he knew what he had to add, because he was going from 2300 to 2700, and did not have to discover for himself what he had to add to go from 2700 to 3100, does not mean that he had to add more code. Just that he had to invest less time to produce that amount of code.

[Uri Blass]

But Syed stated also that Rybka is rated 3161 Elo (more than + 400 Elo over Fruit) and what do you think about this BIG improvement ???

Is that be possible: any clone or derivative engine to have such Elo difference (+ 400 Elo) more than based original engine ???

Of course. There is no limit to how much you can improve a well-written engine like Fruit. Even the strongest engines we know now use a search, alpha-beta pruning, reductions and extensions, null move, Pawn-structure evaluation with recognition of passers, backward Pawns, doubled and isolate Pawns. And King safety, paying attention to Pawn shield, number of squares under attack in th eKing neighborhood. They use hash tables and Pawn hash, repetition detection, material hash.

Fruit does all that too. And the code that does it in Fruit is directly usable in a stronger engine. In my estimate it would only require 10% extra code to add 400 Elo to Fruit. The other 90% could be directly copied from it.

I fully disagree with you !!

Or maybe you are joking, right )) ?

I am not an engine developer, but I have a little bit experience in computer chess

And from my experience I can say,
To improve + 400 Elo...is not so easy as it looks !
If it was so easy...the opponents would not prefer to sign and collect signatures against Vas

Hopes this time helps....

My opinion
1)It is not easy to improve a top engine by 400 elo.
It is possible that it is easy today to improve fruit today by 400 elo but it is only because fruit today is not a top engine(it certainly was not easy at the time that Vas developed Rybka).
2)It is possible to improve fruit by 400 elo when you add only 10% extra code(it may be possible also for stockfish but it does not mean that it is easy to do it).
3)I do not believe that rybka did it because rybka is a bitboard engine and
I think that you need clearly more than 10% change in the code only to translate fruit to bitboards.

Uri

[Sedat Canbaz]

Btw (if it is so easy...)
I have no patience to see X engine, which will be +50 Elo over Stockfish
Note: I don't request 400 Elo, just 50 Elo )) !!

Maybe now...
The programmers will start to understand me what I mean )))

[Sedat Canbaz]

But Syed stated also that Rybka is rated 3161 Elo (more than + 400 Elo over Fruit) and what do you think about this BIG improvement ???

Is that be possible: any clone or derivative engine to have such Elo difference (+ 400 Elo) more than based original engine ???

Of course. There is no limit to how much you can improve a well-written engine like Fruit. Even the strongest engines we know now use a search, alpha-beta pruning, reductions and extensions, null move, Pawn-structure evaluation with recognition of passers, backward Pawns, doubled and isolate Pawns. And King safety, paying attention to Pawn shield, number of squares under attack in th eKing neighborhood. They use hash tables and Pawn hash, repetition detection, material hash.

Fruit does all that too. And the code that does it in Fruit is directly usable in a stronger engine. In my estimate it would only require 10% extra code to add 400 Elo to Fruit. The other 90% could be directly copied from it.

I fully disagree with you !!

Or maybe you are joking, right )) ?

I am not an engine developer, but I have a little bit experience in computer chess

And from my experience I can say,
To improve + 400 Elo...is not so easy as it looks !
If it was so easy...the opponents would not prefer to sign and collect signatures against Vas

Hopes this time helps....

My opinion
1)It is not easy to improve a top engine by 400 elo.
It is possible that it is easy today to improve fruit today by 400 elo but it is only because fruit today is not a top engine(it certainly was not easy at the time that Vas developed Rybka).
2)It is possible to improve fruit by 400 elo when you add only 10% extra code(it may be possible also for stockfish but it does not mean that it is easy to do it).
3)I do not believe that rybka did it because rybka is a bitboard engine and
I think that you need clearly more than 10% change in the code only to translate fruit to bitboards.

Uri

100 % agreed...


Best,
Sedat

[hgm]

I therefore consider it a good thing that many strong programs don't participate in tournaments like the WCCC. By making the tournament less prestigious, we maintain the positive sides of over-the-board tournaments (a rare opportunity to interact socially with people who share this unusual hobby), while eliminating or at least reducing the toxic effects of competition.

Well, I was not in the first place thinking of you, because I knew you had visited OTB events before, and thought you just moved on to other priorities. But thank you for clarifying your motives.

They are actually a good example of the point that I want to make here: that the problem is not Rybka or ICGA, or that the WCCC does not attract the strongest opponents. It is a conscious attempt by top-level programmers to make the World Championship (any World Championship) fail, for various personal reasons. Which is of course their right. But it is not something that can be cured by ICGA, or by readmitting Rybka, or by making the WCCC less expensive. Their reasons just have nothing to do with all that at all.

The decreasing number of participants, on the other hand, is a problem. I'm toying with the idea of participating with some experimental toy engine running on a mobile phone or smartwatch some time in the future, and I hope others will consider something similar.

Why not come to the ICGA Olympiad with a Shogi engine, like I do?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Whether you agree or disagree is completely immaterial, as you are not qualified to make any judgement at all.

Who is this 'expert' who is qualified to make any judgement at all, probably you ??? you are the biggest expert, right ???

Remember that too,
Everybody has own views...
Of course I don't expect from everybody to agree with me, if everybody agrees that means I am doing it wrong !!

[Sedat Canbaz]

And sometimes I am wondering,
Why many programmers are against Rybka, Houdini chess engine ?
Why many programmers don't congratulate the former Champions ?

In my opinion,
These talented programmers fully deserve to be respected...

Correct me, if I am wrong...


Btw I am refreshing my previous posting again, maybe it has been missed... ))

If it is so easy...
I have no patience to see X engine, which will be +50 Elo over Stockfish
Note: I don't request 400 Elo, just 50 Elo )) !!

Maybe now...
The programmers will start to understand me what I mean )))


Of course,
There is nothing impossible....and in case of + 50 Elo over Stockfish
This programmer will be counted in my eyes as best one with own ideas than all !!

[hgm]

Who is this 'expert' who is qualified to make any judgement at all, probably you ??? you are the biggest expert, right ???

Being able to read source code, and having experience in writing complex computer programs might be slightly helpful, agreed? Having actually studied source code of open-source Chess engines, and written many yourself even more so... I think we all know many persons that fit this description, on CCC. But I don't think you are amongst them.

Remember that too,
Everybody has own views...
Of course I don't expect from everybody to agree with me, if everybody agrees that means I am doing it wrong !!

Sure, everyone has his views. But the views of some carries more weight than others. If someone that doesn't know a word of Chinese would have a view on the literary quality of Chinese books, just because he had used a stack of them under the legs of his table to prevent the wobble, I would not take him very seriously. Would you?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Being able to read source code, and having experience in writing complex computer programs might be slightly helpful, agreed? Having actually studied source code of open-source Chess engines, and written many yourself even more so... I think we all know many persons that fit this description, on CCC. But I don't think you are amongst them.

You really don't understand what I mean...
So I will try once more to explain you

Yes...there are programmers who are able to read source code...
But on Rybka days...
No one could not release his engine, which to be stronger than Rybka !!

Do you understand me now ???

Btw, I think,
You are also not able to read open - source engine codes...
Otherwise your engine would be much stronger, right )) ?

Or maybe is that can be the reason,
You are very busy on comments than improving your engine ?? ))
Because I noticed you have on Talkchess forum: Posts: 15219

And as I mentioned before,
If it is so easy...to improve +400 Elo,
Why the rest programmers could not improve there engines with more than +400 Elo (on Rybka days) ??

As we see,
Only Vasik Rajlich managed to do a such great record !!

Plus Vas's engine was for almost 6 years 'unbeatable' on the real Arena, exception on papers !!

And I am pretty sure of this,
Some of those who signed that joke letter, they are more 'cloners' than Vas...
To be sure that I am wrong or right, please look at my decent published sim test results!
Their engines contain more codes and similarities based on Rybka (Ippo)

And be sure of this,
Who signed that funny letter, one day they will be sorry for that...!!
Because...the life is like boomerang !!!

And last,
Some programmers should retire from chess programming...
Because they bring nothing to benefit, exception waste of time...!!

[hgm]

You really don't understand what I mean...
So I will try once more to explain you

Yes...there are programmers who are able to read source code...
But on Rybka days...
No one could not release his engine, which to be stronger than Rybka !!

Do you understand me now ???

I understand very well what you are saying. But it is a non-argument. That it is hard to design the 10% of code you have to add, perhaps so hard that other programmers needed double the time to do it, doesn't show that you didn't steal the other 90%, for which others had to work equally hard when that engine was still the strongest in the world.

One has nothing to do with the other. You can be a talented programmer and a code thief at the same time. If I become the richest person in the World by stealing Warren Buffets money, and adding some 20% to it the next year in the stock market, I would still be considered a thief. No one would say: "You really proved you are a good investor, by making 20% where others only made 10% in the same year. Of course you are entitled to keep Warren's billions!"

Btw, I think,
You are also not able to read open - source engine codes...
Otherwise your engine would be much stronger, right )) ?

Well, as you said, everyone can have a 'view'. I am happy enough that Fairy-Max would beat Stockfish by something like 18-2.