Suppose the worst case against Vas, and then...

[fern]

And then this:
Suppose Vas efectively took, as Christophe say, a good piece of Fruit code to begin his work. Just suppose for the sake or the argument it was so.
But now, if we suppose that, we must also accept this more than probed fact, the stubborn fact that after doing what he supposedly did, Vas also made LOT of improvements, aditions, etc, so at last the result is not only a different entity BUT also a FAR better one, a lot stronger engine. In fact, the best of the world these days.
Is not the path which every technician, scientist, literary man, painter, musician follows?
Musicians take almost everything from others guys as a ground for his own efforts. They use chords, scales, procedings, even chunks of melody to get his own music done. Same with writers. Science is not much more than doing that. As the saying goes: "I stood on the shoulders....etc..."
It is the way that in everything progress is made.
Now, please, after taking into acount all those obvious facts, it is not clear that, compared with it, the legal or just etiquette implications of Vas using a piece of work of other people cannot be less important? I mean it from the point of view of progress in general. At most If there is a legal case, it is important only for the guy that feel he was robed or abused. And If it is so, he no doubt will sue or make whatever he dims necesary to get repaid in money or glory. BUT It is his business, not ours.
BTW, Is this the case of Fruit author?
Not to date.
Have this person presented a complain?
No.
Have we heard ONE word from him?
No in my knowledge.
Is Fruit comparable in strenght to Rybka?
No. Good as it is, it is far behind Rybka.
So, have or not Vas made something new, incredible, worthy?
Yes.
Maybe he used a piece of code that, according to some laws, he should not?
Maybe.
Maybe and so what...
Last comment: all this discussion about legalities would not even exist if after "taking" all the codes of the world Rybka was just an average engine. It is its succes the key to all this rage.
I understand it, because nobody is happy after being pushed to obsolescence just like that, but that feeling has not even an atom of worth if presented as reasons to deprecate a man and/or his work.

My best
Fern

[Steve B]

Suppose Vas efectively took, as Christophe say, a good piece of Fruit code to begin his work. Just suppose for the sake or the argument it was so.

Given your hypothetical then for me this would not be acceptable
no mention was ever made that Rybka was a derivative of Fruit as would be true in your example
i can list several engines that improved upon Fruit and you will always see Fabien and Fruit acknowledged
Toga,Gambit Fruit ..etc etc.
here we would have a commercial engine derived from Fruit with no mention ever being made of that fact
sorry Fern but that would just be plain dishonest at worst.. and sneaky at best....
IMHO Regards
Steve

[fern]

The problem here comes from the fact you use the word "derivative", that involves or supposes just a matter of degrees of separation. Cosmetics changes, sometimes.
But in this case, In Rybka case, we have something that would be equal to call a car "derivative" of a horse-powered carriage.
But if you insist, I would make in a Court the point that everything is derivative of something else, no matter if it is said or not.
If this is the point, then we have at most a case of lack of politeness or consideration. At most, because there is no way of comparing the perfomance of Fruit with that of Rybka and the perfiomance is the esential point. You cannot compare two so different -in perfomance- things and still sustain one is "derivative" in a narrow property sense of the other.

Perry Mason send his regards
Fern

[eriq]

Fern is right!

None of this would be talked about without Rybka being the best engine in the world. When I started reading some of these post I just couldn't believe how people could even think this way. What a bunch of haters, but I guess this is what the world is about these days.

Peace and love must be just a silly concept. [/quote]

[Steve B]

i guess it would be OK then if i would hire a well known writer
then he will take one of your books and improve upon it..add a few chapters..change a few things..and release it as his own work

then when caught he will say...oh i am sorry..i am only standing upon the shoulders of Villegas
i am sorry to be so impolite that i have not mentioned that a good part of my novel is his work(perhaps the best part)

i do not make a living doing things like this Fern
and i do not think you would do it either

a man must act in an honorable way...
with no honor..there is only shame ..and scorn from our fellow colleagues

Death before dishonor regards
Steve

[fern]

Well, but it happens that your example is bad because this is a clasic issue of case-to-case examination you cannot dfismiss with such a metaphore as you used at my cost. But well, If that writer really make something superior and better work according to any experienced judge and making use of same script than me, it is ok. If his just add or sustract a bit, then we have a copy.
In fact in literature there are MANY cases of this class.
Do you believe Cervantes was the first guy in writing a novel like El Quiojote?
No.
There were before lot of them, some serious, some tongue in sheek.
But is the case Cervante's work was far better. Nobody could blame him as a copyist.
If I ever need a lawyer with some preacher virtues, I will hire you, my dearest friend.
Fern

[GenoM]

Fern is right!

None of this would be talked about without Rybka being the best engine in the world. When I started reading some of these post I just couldn't believe how people could even think this way. What a bunch of haters, but I guess this is what the world is about these days.

Peace and love must be just a silly concept.

You're simply wrong. None of this would be talked about without Rybka hiding by purpose its origins by obfuscating Nps and the depth shown.

[fern]

Perhaps that was the pretext to begin all, but the root is the superiority of Rybka. And in any case the factor that begun everything is not relevant to the discussion sustained in this thread.

my best, eugen
Fern

[Steve B]

But well, If that writer really make something superior and better work according to any experienced judge and making use of same script than me, it is ok.

something tells me my friend..that if this were the case..and another writer took a " good part" of your work...gave you no credit..and went on to sell one million copies..made the NY TIMES best seller list and won the Pulitzer prize..never once mentioning you or your work...and you discovered by accident that this great novel was really from your work
you would have a team of Lawyers on this guy so fast it would make the OJ Simpson case look like a University debating squad meet

Case Closed Regards
Steve

[fern]

Again, steve, you are falling in a logical fallacy as much you suppose from the beginning that a copy exist, precisely what must be reasoned and probed.
But in fact what worry me is this:
WHAT A HECK ARE YOU AND ME DOING HERE, EVEN DISCUSSING ISSUES, INSTEAD OF BEING TALKING FRIENDLY MATTER IN HIARCS?

Suddenly awaken regards
Fern