Rebel 14

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Eduard
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Full name: N.N.

Re: Rebel 14

Post by Eduard »

RubiChess wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:46 pm Maybe Rebel doesn't like the bishop on i1.
Read again. Rebel 14 likes almost nothing. :shock:

Come on, i just showed a simple test position. Is that too much?
Vernon Crawford
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Location: London, England
Full name: Vernon Crawford

Re: Rebel 14

Post by Vernon Crawford »

Rebel wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:49 pm
Vernon Crawford wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:03 pm
If you're so against pruning and not interested in Elo, why did you implement PK's new heavily Stockfish influenced search?
Read again, the red.
It makes no sense...
connor_mcmonigle
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Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:40 am
Full name: Connor McMonigle

Re: Rebel 14

Post by connor_mcmonigle »

Vernon Crawford wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:46 pm
connor_mcmonigle wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:20 pm
Vernon Crawford wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:03 pm ...
If you're so against pruning and not interested in Elo, why did you implement PK's new heavily Stockfish influenced search?
Outside of a log based reduction formula, what makes PK's changes "heavily Stockfish influenced"? All these other heuristics predate Stockfish. Have you even read the source or are you just making baseless claims?
// late move reduction
// static null move / beta pruning
// calculate reduction - simplified Stockfish formula
// Razoring
// late move pruning

Connor, the comments I posted above are copied from Rebel 14 source code, and these features are not present in Fruit 2.1.
Please refrain from knee-jerk reactions and accusations without due diligence.

My question was addressed to Ed, why so eager to defend him any question or comment?
I didn't accuse you of anything if you'll read what I've written. In any case, it's difficult for me to buy the notion that a 2800 Elo engine (PK's improved Fruit) is "heavily Stockfish influenced" so I asked what lead you to make that claim.

I'm not defending Ed as there's nothing really to defend. Ed's been perfectly transparent about the origins of Rebel 14 and the only complaint with any validity is in regards to his choice of name.
chrisw
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Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: Rebel 14

Post by chrisw »

Vernon Crawford wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:03 pm
Rebel wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:38 am About the choice for the name REBEL.

I can understand the criticism. At development time the internal name "Fruity" was used, the compiler still produces "fruitig.exe" (dutch for fruity). The reason to call it REBEL (and not ProDeo or Fruit) is that it doesn't play like Fruit, nor like ProDeo, with NNUE it won back its original attractive REBEL playing style of the 90's, Rebel Century and Rebel 12 (both DOS) being the last ones.

As many of you know very well all that massive pruning delivers a lot elo, the side effect is perhaps less known, or it is known but not cared about because elo rules. Point of massive pruning is you also prune in the chess knowledge you worked so hard on for years, it affects the playing style of an engine.

While it's true ProDeo gained 200-250 elo over the last Rebel (DOS) 90% due to search changes I hardly recognize the engine any longer due to all the pruning. NNUE changed all that and much better. NNUE makes a blue print of your hard worked on HCE evaluation without pruning.

-----

About the choice for the FRUIT search and not using my own.

When I retired in 2002/3 I was using an up to date compiler (Digital Mars, formally Symantec) of that time but with my retirement the compiler guys retired also. No more updates. No 64 bit support, no SSE support, and also Rebel / ProDeo and Benjamin are all 32 bit assembler code. Moving to NNUE requires a modern compiler and C or C++ is a must. And I have one, Gideon 1992/93 is entirely in C and it compiles nicely with VS-2019. But to go back 30 years in time and redo all the changes... I checked --> mission (almost) impossible.

As I wanted to do NNUE anyway anyhow I looked for suited inactive GPL engines similar in strength with the latest ProDeo. And Growing Fruit looked excellent for that purpose. There are many other inactive engines out there and much stronger, some even without any licence. I have no intention to step back in the elo arena.
Ed, Rebel 14 contains a new improved +100 Elo search with quite a bit of new pruning and reductions compared to Fruit 2.1:

// late move reduction
// static null move / beta pruning
// calculate reduction - simplified Stockfish formula
// Razoring
// late move pruning

On my PC, Rebel 14 searches to depth 17 in 5 secs while Fruit 2.1 only achieves depth 13.

If you're so against pruning and not interested in Elo, why did you implement PK's new heavily Stockfish influenced search?
Because it wanted to get to the other side.
criko
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:50 pm

Re: Rebel 14

Post by criko »

Eduard wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:43 pm I don't want to criticize, but the engine is very weak. In almost every test position, the wrong move is preferred.

For this position Rebel 14 needs 2 minutes and 30s:

[fen]8/p5p1/1p4k1/1P1PQp2/Pq4p1/6P1/4K2P/8 b - - 0 66[/fen]



Like in the stone age.
Simple solution for you.
Don't use the engine, if you don't like the engine.
Keep on playing on boring servers and spread buggy books.
amanjpro
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Full name: Amanj Sherwany

Re: Rebel 14

Post by amanjpro »

Eduard wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:50 pm
RubiChess wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:46 pm Maybe Rebel doesn't like the bishop on i1.
Read again. Rebel 14 likes almost nothing. :shock:

Come on, i just showed a simple test position. Is that too much?
It is very weak? Can you score two points against it in 100 games? If not then it is not too weak, it is just not SF level which is perfectly expected
Vernon Crawford
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Location: London, England
Full name: Vernon Crawford

Re: Rebel 14

Post by Vernon Crawford »

chrisw wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:08 pm
Vernon Crawford wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:03 pm
If you're so against pruning and not interested in Elo, why did you implement PK's new heavily Stockfish influenced search?
Because it wanted to get to the other side.
:D
Thx Now that I can understand!

BTW - Awesome job on the NNUE implementation, it runs great.
Eduard
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Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:58 am
Location: Germany
Full name: N.N.

Re: Rebel 14

Post by Eduard »

criko wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:10 pm
Eduard wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:43 pm I don't want to criticize, but the engine is very weak. In almost every test position, the wrong move is preferred.

For this position Rebel 14 needs 2 minutes and 30s:

[fen]8/p5p1/1p4k1/1P1PQp2/Pq4p1/6P1/4K2P/8 b - - 0 66[/fen]



Like in the stone age.
Simple solution for you.
Don't use the engine, if you don't like the engine.
Keep on playing on boring servers and spread buggy books.
Oh man, you can only talk stupid. I was just saying that the engine is weak (with a testposition), your comment doesn't make it any better.
dannyb
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Full name: Daniel Bennett

Re: Rebel 14

Post by dannyb »

Yesterday Prof. Hyatt was found rolling on the floor laughing his ass off. He has been sedated and he is fine now.
Whether what happened is in any way related to the release of Fruity Rebel is still uncertain and therefore we kindly ask you not to tell him that Ed is now considering switching to Toga IV so that Rebel can have a parallel search as he stated in his forum.
Better safe than sorry. Thank you.

:lol:
dkappe
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:52 pm
Full name: Dietrich Kappe

Re: Rebel 14

Post by dkappe »

dannyb wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:05 pm Yesterday Prof. Hyatt was found rolling on the floor laughing his ass off. He has been sedated and he is fine now.
Whether what happened is in any way related to the release of Fruity Rebel is still uncertain and therefore we kindly ask you not to tell him that Ed is now considering switching to Toga IV so that Rebel can have a parallel search as he stated in his forum.
Better safe than sorry. Thank you.

:lol:
I’ve already colonized that retired engine. Sorry.
Fat Titz by Stockfish, the engine with the bodaciously big net. Remember: size matters. If you want to learn more about this engine just google for "Fat Titz".