GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 1-40)

[Terry McCracken]

Begins to look more interesting. I think I'd just develop with Re8, but after h5 and such, black can fall into some tactics that might be too deep... So suddenly it is becoming interesting to watch...

Go Larry!

I'm not feeling optimistic. The threat of h5 isn't that great, Black is very flexible here. The Connie needs to play very passively to get into any real trouble.

White is in a heap due to King Weakness, regardless of being a QR down.

The Connie will likely play 30..Re8., but 30..d3!! can create all kinds of havoc for White. Maybe it may consider the passive 30..c6....? No, not too optimistic at all. Still, the Connie has a narrow search, we'll see.

Terry,

I think you are being too pessimistic. All you can see is that black has a good game and white is in trouble. You have said this after every move it seems - and you also keep noticing that whatever white plays can be answered by black. (Previously you said that Larry's move was "unsound", etc.)

But this is a rook odds game and OF COURSE every move Larry makes can be easily answered. It takes very little skill to find good moves for the side that is easily winning or to surmise that black has a good game and it's even a bit annoying.

Bob Hyatt had the right idea. The move h4 was a good one not because it is objectively winning (it loses like every other move Larry has) but it's a good move against a shallow thinking opponent - it gives Larry chances to hope for a blunder or miscalculation which is what odds play is all about.

Yeah I know that and sorry....but the Connie isn't playing like a patzer. If it was then I think it could go down but it has made for the most part reasonable moves, (a few inaccuracies but not serious), certainly stronger than it's low rating would suggest.

I've never tried play an odds game like this so it's hard for me to be objective and I don't know what the Connie will do but it has so many good moves that even a patzer could find many of them but maybe would foul it up...sheesh... it's tough to call but yes Larry is doing the best in an odds game...still think he needs to get his QB on d2...oh well.

Yes h4 is unsound but in this case you need to gamble....not the way I'm use to thinking.

[Don]

Begins to look more interesting. I think I'd just develop with Re8, but after h5 and such, black can fall into some tactics that might be too deep... So suddenly it is becoming interesting to watch...

Go Larry!

I'm not feeling optimistic. The threat of h5 isn't that great, Black is very flexible here. The Connie needs to play very passively to get into any real trouble.

White is in a heap due to King Weakness, regardless of being a QR down.

The Connie will likely play 30..Re8., but 30..d3!! can create all kinds of havoc for White. Maybe it may consider the passive 30..c6....? No, not too optimistic at all. Still, the Connie has a narrow search, we'll see.

Terry,

I think you are being too pessimistic. All you can see is that black has a good game and white is in trouble. You have said this after every move it seems - and you also keep noticing that whatever white plays can be answered by black. (Previously you said that Larry's move was "unsound", etc.)

But this is a rook odds game and OF COURSE every move Larry makes can be easily answered. It takes very little skill to find good moves for the side that is easily winning or to surmise that black has a good game and it's even a bit annoying.

Bob Hyatt had the right idea. The move h4 was a good one not because it is objectively winning (it loses like every other move Larry has) but it's a good move against a shallow thinking opponent - it gives Larry chances to hope for a blunder or miscalculation which is what odds play is all about.

Yeah I know that and sorry....but the Connie isn't playing like a patzer. If it was then I think it could go down but it has made for the most part reasonable moves, (a few inaccuracies but not serious), certainly stronger than it's low rating would suggest.

I've never tried play an odds game like this so it's hard for me to be objective and I don't know what the Connie will do but it has so many good moves that even a patzer could find many of them but maybe would foul it up...sheesh... it's tough to call but yes Larry is doing the best in an odds game...still think he needs to get his QB on d2...oh well.

Yes h4 is unsound but in this case you need to gamble....not the way I'm use to thinking.

Of course from a purely objective point of view Larry is losing badly. If you adjust for strength, perhaps this is more like being a pawn or two down - not good but maybe not quite lost either.

Connie has indeed failed to make any serious errors and if this continues the game won't last too long - but let's wait a few more moves. If Connie gets clear of danger and is able to force a trade, especially a trade of queens, then we can start heckling Larry.

Another possibility is endgame - Those old machines were terrible in the endgame relative to todays computers - so there is always the possibility that Larry could find a way to draw but he would almost certainly have to get some of his material back.

[Steve B]

I play 30.h4. It has the aim of h5, and also defends the bishop in case the rook needs to go to another file.

Connie.. a bit saddened to see that everyone is rooting against her .. finally activates her QR with..
30..Re8

[d] 4r1k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4p1/2qn2B1/2Bp2RP/1Q6/P4P1K/8 w - - 0 31

No Home Court Advantage i guess Regards
Steve

P.S.
As we have Now reached the 30th move ..i include the current PGN:

REMOVE WHITE QR
[Event "CCC Forum Challenge "]
[Date "2010.7.3"]
[White "GM Kaufman"]
[Black "Novag Constellation 3.6"]
[Time Control "3 Min. Per Move "]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O dxc3
8.Qb3 Qf6 9.e5 Qf5 10.Nxc3 Nge7 11.Ba3 Bxc3 12.Qxc3 b6 13.h3 Bb7 14.Rc1
O-O 15.Rd1 Rfd8 16.Bb2 Qg6 17.Bd3 Qh6 18.Bc1 Qh5 19.Re1 d5 20.Kh2 d4
21.Qa3 Bc8 22.Re4 Bf5 23.g4 Bxg4 24.Rxg4 Nxe5 25.Nxe5 Qxe5+ 26.Bf4 Qc5
27.Qb3 g6 28.Bc4 Nd5 29.Bg5 Rd7 30.h4 Re8 *

[bob]

Begins to look more interesting. I think I'd just develop with Re8, but after h5 and such, black can fall into some tactics that might be too deep... So suddenly it is becoming interesting to watch...

Go Larry!

I'm not feeling optimistic. The threat of h5 isn't that great, Black is very flexible here. The Connie needs to play very passively to get into any real trouble.

White is in a heap due to King Weakness, regardless of being a QR down.

The Connie will likely play 30..Re8., but 30..d3!! can create all kinds of havoc for White. Maybe it may consider the passive 30..c6....? No, not too optimistic at all. Still, the Connie has a narrow search, we'll see.

Terry,

I think you are being too pessimistic. All you can see is that black has a good game and white is in trouble. You have said this after every move it seems - and you also keep noticing that whatever white plays can be answered by black. (Previously you said that Larry's move was "unsound", etc.)

But this is a rook odds game and OF COURSE every move Larry makes can be easily answered. It takes very little skill to find good moves for the side that is easily winning or to surmise that black has a good game and it's even a bit annoying.

Bob Hyatt had the right idea. The move h4 was a good one not because it is objectively winning (it loses like every other move Larry has) but it's a good move against a shallow thinking opponent - it gives Larry chances to hope for a blunder or miscalculation which is what odds play is all about.

Yeah I know that and sorry....but the Connie isn't playing like a patzer. If it was then I think it could go down but it has made for the most part reasonable moves, (a few inaccuracies but not serious), certainly stronger than it's low rating would suggest.

I've never tried play an odds game like this so it's hard for me to be objective and I don't know what the Connie will do but it has so many good moves that even a patzer could find many of them but maybe would foul it up...sheesh... it's tough to call but yes Larry is doing the best in an odds game...still think he needs to get his QB on d2...oh well.

Yes h4 is unsound but in this case you need to gamble....not the way I'm use to thinking.

That's the key point. Almost every move Larry has to play is played out of desperation. Being down a rook is bad. But this path has some pitfalls with pins, open files around the king, open diagonal, etc, that a shallow-thinker can royally screw up with just one horizon move.

We used to have a supercon that we used in tournaments at the university chess club at Southern Miss when I was playing there. We brought it out when we had an odd number of participants. For a while. Bert Gower and I each learned an opening that won a piece, and we could crush it easily. Some sore sports cried foul and we stopped using it. I don't even remember the opening now, might have been the Fried Liver when I was playing white, but am not sure. In any case, depth is not its strong point compared to today's programs. It doesn't take but a single blink sometimes and the game turns around...

[Terry McCracken]

Begins to look more interesting. I think I'd just develop with Re8, but after h5 and such, black can fall into some tactics that might be too deep... So suddenly it is becoming interesting to watch...

Go Larry!

I'm not feeling optimistic. The threat of h5 isn't that great, Black is very flexible here. The Connie needs to play very passively to get into any real trouble.

White is in a heap due to King Weakness, regardless of being a QR down.

The Connie will likely play 30..Re8., but 30..d3!! can create all kinds of havoc for White. Maybe it may consider the passive 30..c6....? No, not too optimistic at all. Still, the Connie has a narrow search, we'll see.

Terry,

I think you are being too pessimistic. All you can see is that black has a good game and white is in trouble. You have said this after every move it seems - and you also keep noticing that whatever white plays can be answered by black. (Previously you said that Larry's move was "unsound", etc.)

But this is a rook odds game and OF COURSE every move Larry makes can be easily answered. It takes very little skill to find good moves for the side that is easily winning or to surmise that black has a good game and it's even a bit annoying.

Bob Hyatt had the right idea. The move h4 was a good one not because it is objectively winning (it loses like every other move Larry has) but it's a good move against a shallow thinking opponent - it gives Larry chances to hope for a blunder or miscalculation which is what odds play is all about.

Yeah I know that and sorry....but the Connie isn't playing like a patzer. If it was then I think it could go down but it has made for the most part reasonable moves, (a few inaccuracies but not serious), certainly stronger than it's low rating would suggest.

I've never tried play an odds game like this so it's hard for me to be objective and I don't know what the Connie will do but it has so many good moves that even a patzer could find many of them but maybe would foul it up...sheesh... it's tough to call but yes Larry is doing the best in an odds game...still think he needs to get his QB on d2...oh well.

Yes h4 is unsound but in this case you need to gamble....not the way I'm use to thinking.

That's the key point. Almost every move Larry has to play is played out of desperation. Being down a rook is bad. But this path has some pitfalls with pins, open files around the king, open diagonal, etc, that a shallow-thinker can royally screw up with just one horizon move.

We used to have a supercon that we used in tournaments at the university chess club at Southern Miss when I was playing there. We brought it out when we had an odd number of participants. For a while. Bert Gower and I each learned an opening that won a piece, and we could crush it easily. Some sore sports cried foul and we stopped using it. I don't even remember the opening now, might have been the Fried Liver when I was playing white, but am not sure. In any case, depth is not its strong point compared to today's programs. It doesn't take but a single blink sometimes and the game turns around...

I know, the Connie is myopic but not absurdly so in such a position I feel.
As Don said, the Endgame is particularly weak. Let's hope for a lucky shot or an Endgame the Connie will do badly in. Need to win some pawns back at least.

If Larry even draws I'll be impressed and it will be almost a miracle if he wins.

The expected 30..Re8 has been played.

[Terry McCracken]

I play 30.h4. It has the aim of h5, and also defends the bishop in case the rook needs to go to another file.

Connie.. a bit saddened to see that everyone is rooting against her .. finally activates her QR with..
30..Re8

[d] 4r1k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4p1/2qn2B1/2Bp2RP/1Q6/P4P1K/8 w - - 0 31

No Home Court Advantage i guess Regards
Steve

P.S.
As we have Now reached the 30th move ..i include the current PGN:

REMOVE WHITE QR
[Event "CCC Forum Challenge "]
[Date "2010.7.3"]
[White "GM Kaufman"]
[Black "Novag Constellation 3.6"]
[Time Control "3 Min. Per Move "]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O dxc3
8.Qb3 Qf6 9.e5 Qf5 10.Nxc3 Nge7 11.Ba3 Bxc3 12.Qxc3 b6 13.h3 Bb7 14.Rc1
O-O 15.Rd1 Rfd8 16.Bb2 Qg6 17.Bd3 Qh6 18.Bc1 Qh5 19.Re1 d5 20.Kh2 d4
21.Qa3 Bc8 22.Re4 Bf5 23.g4 Bxg4 24.Rxg4 Nxe5 25.Nxe5 Qxe5+ 26.Bf4 Qc5
27.Qb3 g6 28.Bc4 Nd5 29.Bg5 Rd7 30.h4 Re8 *

Oh, you're just elated that Black's inactive piece, the QR is now gunning down the e-file.

31. h5?! and pray? Connie then might play 31..Nc3 etc. etc.

Altogether now Regards

[lkaufman]

Connie.. a bit saddened to see that everyone is rooting against her .. finally activates her QR with..
30..Re8

[d] 4r1k1/p1pr1p1p/1p4p1/2qn2B1/2Bp2RP/1Q6/P4P1K/8 w - - 0 31

No Home Court Advantage i guess Regards
Steve

P.S.
As we have Now reached the 30th move ..i include the current PGN:

REMOVE WHITE QR
[Event "CCC Forum Challenge "]
[Date "2010.7.3"]
[White "GM Kaufman"]
[Black "Novag Constellation 3.6"]
[Time Control "3 Min. Per Move "]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O dxc3
8.Qb3 Qf6 9.e5 Qf5 10.Nxc3 Nge7 11.Ba3 Bxc3 12.Qxc3 b6 13.h3 Bb7 14.Rc1
O-O 15.Rd1 Rfd8 16.Bb2 Qg6 17.Bd3 Qh6 18.Bc1 Qh5 19.Re1 d5 20.Kh2 d4
21.Qa3 Bc8 22.Re4 Bf5 23.g4 Bxg4 24.Rxg4 Nxe5 25.Nxe5 Qxe5+ 26.Bf4 Qc5
27.Qb3 g6 28.Bc4 Nd5 29.Bg5 Rd7 30.h4 Re8 *

I play the expected 31.h5. Unfortunately there is no chance that Connie might be tempted to take the pawn, as it loses the queen to a discovered check. I'm leaving in the morning for the US Open, and while I should still have internet access I might not be quite as prompt about making my moves as I have been so far. I'll try to move once a day if possible.

[Steve B]

If Larry even draws I'll be impressed and it will be almost a miracle if he wins.

Of Course a draw for GM Kaufman would be impressive
the point of this experiment was not to see if a 1700 elo computer can win but rather if a R can overcome a 1000 pt elo gap in playing strength
so a draw achieves the goal of the experiment

in this game the difference in strength is less then 1000
but Larry is not a typical GM because of his extensive knowledge of the old dedicated computers as well as the current engines
i would still consider a draw for Connie as providing some more evidence for the Experiment

after this game a member has agreed to operate Movei ..a solid 2700 Engine against another one of my 1700 Elo dedicated units..also at QR odds..to be played here

anyway as GM Kaufman is preoccupied else (competing in the US Open) i feel i have the right to let Connie Ponder in-between moves


J/K Regards
Steve

[bob]

If Larry even draws I'll be impressed and it will be almost a miracle if he wins.

Of Course a draw for GM Kaufman would be impressive
the point of this experiment was not to see if a 1700 elo computer can win but rather if a R can overcome a 1000 pt elo gap in playing strength
so a draw achieves the goal of the experiment

in this game the difference in strength is less then 1000
but Larry is not a typical GM because of his extensive knowledge of the old dedicated computers as well as the current engines
i would still consider a draw for Connie as providing some more evidence for the Experiment

after this game a member has agreed to operate Movei ..a solid 2700 Engine against another one of my 1700 Elo dedicated units..also at QR odds..to be played here

anyway as GM Kaufman is preoccupied else (competing in the US Open) i feel i have the right to let Connie Ponder in-between moves


J/K Regards
Steve

That will be an interesting test. Computers are, in general, horrible odds players. You can't keep exchanging a pair of pieces to win a pawn. You run out of pieces before you catch back up in material, leaving yourself lost.

[Steve B]

That will be an interesting test. Computers are, in general, horrible odds players. You can't keep exchanging a pair of pieces to win a pawn. You run out of pieces before you catch back up in material, leaving yourself lost.

thats exactly correct
i have played 6 games now against the same 2700 PC engine at R odds
the lower rated dedicated's(all 1700 range) have won 2 and drawn 4
i only saved 3 of the games(1 win- 2 draws)
i initially tried some games(about 6 or so) at "time odds" and "minor piece" odds but the dedicated's could not draw or win even one game
in each"R odds" game the Engine has usually won back material quickly enough but wound up either lost or hoplessly drawn due to the reduced material

thats what i suspect will happen in the Movei game coming up after this game (but it will be interesting to play against a different engine)

Steve