Dedicated vs. PDA

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Eelco de Groot
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Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by Eelco de Groot »

mclane wrote:the milano comes with a nice laptop design. you can close the machine and play with some tiny piece sets .
i would say for the money the milano offers the most ELO.

the star diamond is IMO the most attractive in his class.
strong. many features. and nice bag.

if they are both too big for you. take a palm. the pocket pcs are IMO to expensive.
If it is about chess training with a real board and pieces I think a Citrine, although smaller than a real tournament board but with an optional connection to a PC and Arena, would be ideal if there is no human opponent around. The program that comes with the Citrine itself is not really terribly strong though, so if it is getting really serious you would soon be wanting to play against PC software anyway, but with a adapter cable to a PC that is possible. With a additional Bluetooth connection it could even be wirelessly connected and PC software is for certain not going to be outdated. For a kid, I think playing against a PDA on a small stylusscreen does not really seem much fun. I think he would be better off then with a surplus PC when he is old enough, equipped with ChessMaster or any of a whole range of other available chessprograms, I think he would learn more and there is much more other software that he could learn from on a PC.

Eelco
JonP01

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by JonP01 »

DMT wrote:But I realized I'm getting up in the price class where I might just be better off buying something like a Palm Z22 with HIARCS on it.

So, aside form the obvious extra features I get with a PDA, if we pretend I will ONLY use it for chess, what are the pros/cons for one vs. the other?

For example, I haven't seen a Z22 up close and personal ... how would the graphics on the Z22 compare to the excalibur deluxe? What would be one model up from the Z22 in terms of graphics, but still not too big a price jump?

What about features?

And also important would be battery life and how fast it plays?

Anyone have good tips and advice for me?

Thanks!

Hi David,

Well I own quite a few late model dedicated machines and I also own a Palm Z22 with HIARCS loaded onto it. So I am probably in a good position to answer some questions.

As for the display quality of the Z22 chessboard and pieces, in my opinion it is vastly superior to that of any dedicated LCD type of chess computer. Many would find the simplistic display of the Ruby, for example to be very poor by comparison. Even though the Z22 has only half the resolution of the better Palm products (it's only 160 pixels wide), I've never had any problem at all as regards readability.

Having said that, I guess I would consider the display on the Excalibur Deluxe Talking Touch Chess (DTTC) to be next best, since the pieces are much better than the very simple symbols used in the Ruby. They are dot matrix representations and rather more "shapely". The new model with the backlight should be a considerable improvement, however the only advantage I could see it having over a Z22 is in terms of size - the Z22 display is of course relatively small compared to the Excalibur.

As for battery life, this is where the dedicated computers have it all over the little Z22. Infact battery life is it's biggest bugbear. The problem of course is that PDAs in general are designed with day to day computing tasks in mind - not chess where the CPU can be flat out for more or less 100% of the time. I find that if I have pondering turned on and the display backlight turned down to low, I might get about 6 - 8 hours battery life between recharges. I find this to be barely acceptable.

On the other hand, unless you are using the Z22 for analysis, you would not really need to have the pondering turned on. Therefore, if you were to play time handicap games against it (the human moving slowly, HIARCS moving very quickly), then the battery might perhaps last perhaps 9 - 10 hours that way. At least the device is quickly and easily recharged though.

The dedicated machines are much better, although the stronger ones chew through batteries much faster than something like an Excalibur machine. My Excalibur DTTC is very economical even on rechargeable AAA batteries. However the new model will have a backlight and that will certainly change things unless the total milliamp hours of the batteries is vastly improved.

As for strength and features, there is simply no contest. HIARCS on a Palm Z22 will blow away any dedicated chess computer ever marketed in terms of strength and features, with the exception of the Ressurection machines (which are extremely limited production and if you have to ask the cost you can't afford it type of scenario...). I have also found that HIARCS is one of the very few chess programs that still plays decent chess when it is handicapped. Infact I think it's handicapping features are probably the best of any chess program I have come across. In my experience, when you set it to play at a given ELO level, it really does seem to play around that strength...unlike most chess engines that are very inconsistent in this regard.

One bad point as regards the Z22 is that the rechargeable battery is not user replaceable. This means that once the battery reaches the end of it's service life, that is pretty much the end for the unit, as the cost of having it replaced would be more than what the unit is worth.

That said, I still think the Z22 and HIARCS is the best way to go, since it has good handicapping features, can play around 2500 ELO fully unleashed, has a huge openings book relatively speaking and has a much clearer display than any dedicated machine.


Jonathan
DMT

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by DMT »

Thanks! That was incredibly helpful.
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mclane
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Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by mclane »

the zire21 has no backlight. therefore the battery time is longer.
Steve B

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by Steve B »

JonP01 wrote:
As for strength and features, there is simply no contest. HIARCS on a Palm Z22 will blow away any dedicated chess computer ever marketed in terms of strength and features, with the exception of the Ressurection machines (which are extremely limited production and if you have to ask the cost you can't afford it type of scenario...).
Jonathan
hmmm
im thinking any one of my Tasc's could eat your Palm Z22 for lunch at any time control ...without even getting out of bed

probably my Tournament Machine-London could also

probably even others but these three leap to mind

Pffft Regards
Steve
8-)
Cubeman
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Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by Cubeman »

Would not be too sure about that Steve,Hiarcs has a wicked opening book which almost always gives it a winning advantage against these older dedicated machines.
Cubeman
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by Cubeman »

DMT wrote:Thanks! That was incredibly helpful.
But be warned that Hiarcs costs US $43.80.If you are on a budget you might be interested Toga 1.2.1a which is free and can be run with SCID for PPC.
Steve B

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by Steve B »

Cubeman wrote:Would not be too sure about that Steve,Hiarcs has a wicked opening book which almost always gives it a winning advantage against these older dedicated machines.
well its true that loading the Z22 with Hiarcs makes it a far more formidable opponent then say another other program

now if Rybka would be in there then it would be a

piece of cake regards
Steve
DMT

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by DMT »

Cubeman wrote:
DMT wrote:Thanks! That was incredibly helpful.
But be warned that Hiarcs costs US $43.80.If you are on a budget you might be interested Toga 1.2.1a which is free and can be run with SCID for PPC.
What is SCID? And do you have a link for Toga? Is it any good? What other PDA software that isn't too expensive should i consider
DMT

Re: Dedicated vs. PDA

Post by DMT »

Also, does anyone have any advice on "training" chess programs for palm OS? I mean programs that don't play, but take you through exercises to improve parts of your game? I think I saw something for Windows Mobile, but nothing for Palm OS.