Fruit vs. Toga poll

[bob]

My vote is simple. "NO". Derivative works are not allowed. I'd prefer to see Toga as based on my cluster testing it is stronger than Fruit. But as far as I am concerned, it is an "either/or" type decision. Otherwise several have modified versions of Crafty they would like to enter, and that makes no sense IMHO. Not to mention glaurung/stockfish, and so forth.

I think the three cases are fundamentally different:

• Crafty's license states very clearly that it is not allowed for anyone to enter the program in any tournament without the author's explicit permission. Clearly, this implies that the "official" Crafty is the only one which can participate in a tournament like CCT.
• For Glaurung/Stockfish, the situation is precisely the opposite: Both programs are free, which means that anyone is allowed to enter either of these programs in the CCT, without asking the author(s) for permission (because this permission is already included in the license). Obviously, both programs cannot participate in the same tournament if the tournament rules prohibit multiple programs sharing code. If someone enters Stockfish before someone enters Glaurung, only Stockfish can participate, and vice versa.
• For Fruit/Toga, the situation is a mess, because they are based on the same code based, and one is proprietary and the other is free. I have no idea what the rules should be for this strange situation, and I wouldn't have voted in the poll if it was still visible. It's an interesting question, unlike the cases with Crafty and Stockfish/Glaurung, where everything seems crystal clear.

Tord

My comments weren't based on "license" issues. They were based on the usual "one entry per author" rule every tournament I have played in has used.

[Tord Romstad]

My comments weren't based on "license" issues. They were based on the usual "one entry per author" rule every tournament I have played in has used.

Sure, and I agree about that, as does almost everybody else, I guess. The question is: If two people want to enter the same tournament with programs which share code, which of the two programs should be allowed to participate? This question is easy to answer in the case of two Craftys and in the case of Stockfish/Glaurung, but not so easy in the case of Fruit/Toga.

Tord

[michiguel]

My comments weren't based on "license" issues. They were based on the usual "one entry per author" rule every tournament I have played in has used.

Sure, and I agree about that, as does almost everybody else, I guess. The question is: If two people want to enter the same tournament with programs which share code, which of the two programs should be allowed to participate? This question is easy to answer in the case of two Craftys and in the case of Stockfish/Glaurung, but not so easy in the case of Fruit/Toga.

Tord

Tournament rules may make this simpler, and even apply to the glaurung/stokfish case. If we follow similar rules that the ones followed to publish a scientific paper:

* Every author should authorize the submission/registration.

Then, Fabien decides. And in your case, you can block stockfish registration if you want. This will be completely independent of licenses and apply only to a particular tournament.

This is what I believe should be done.

Miguel

[Tord Romstad]

Tournament rules may make this simpler, and even apply to the glaurung/stokfish case. If we follow similar rules that the ones followed to publish a scientific paper:

* Every author should authorize the submission/registration.

Then, Fabien decides. And in your case, you can block stockfish registration if you want.

I don't think I could, and even if it is possible from a strictly legal point of view (which I doubt, but I am not a lawyer), it would be a violation of the central philosophy of a free program like Glaurung or Stockfish. When my program ships with a license that says that you are free to do whatever you like with it (apart from making it proprietary), what right do I have to tell you later that you are not allowed to use it in some tournament?

The whole point of free software like Glaurung is that it belongs to the entire community, and not to a single author. It isn't really my program any more than it is yours. I just happened to write most of the code. It is true that there is a copyright notice that says "Copyright (C) 2004-2009 Tord Romstad", but if you read the GNU GPL carefully, you will see that this copyright notice is there only to make it possible to use standard copyright laws to enforce the license and make sure the program remains free.

Therefore, I don't have any more right than anyone else to enter my program or a program based on it in the CCT. The guy who will be playing with Glaurung in the coming CCT actually did ask for my permission, which is a polite and friendly thing to do, but not technically required.

Tord

[Terry McCracken]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum.

My comment was

I voted for yes, provided it does not endanger the participation of an entry by Ryan Benitez or Fabien Letouzey or another member of the Fruit team that would be the official Fruit representative, provided also that Fabien and Ryan don't object to Toga participating, - I can't imagine that Thomas Gaksch would object-, and it would be an official Toga entry by the TDDB forum, because I see that as the best way to limit the number of Toga entries to one actively developed fork of Fruit, a community effort from the TDDB programmers.

but when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

That's a serious accusation Eelco!

Regardless, the Answer should be in my opinion a resounding NO!

[Christopher Conkie]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum. But when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

Pirate? How so? Explain please.

Favourite? How so? Explain please.

Sabotage? How so? Explain please.

Disappeared? What a shame. No explaination required.

Christopher

[michiguel]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum.

My comment was

I voted for yes, provided it does not endanger the participation of an entry by Ryan Benitez or Fabien Letouzey or another member of the Fruit team that would be the official Fruit representative, provided also that Fabien and Ryan don't object to Toga participating, - I can't imagine that Thomas Gaksch would object-, and it would be an official Toga entry by the TDDB forum, because I see that as the best way to limit the number of Toga entries to one actively developed fork of Fruit, a community effort from the TDDB programmers.

but when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

That's a serious accusation Eelco!

Regardless, the Answer should be in my opinion a resounding NO!

Why?

Miguel

[michiguel]

Tournament rules may make this simpler, and even apply to the glaurung/stokfish case. If we follow similar rules that the ones followed to publish a scientific paper:

* Every author should authorize the submission/registration.

Then, Fabien decides. And in your case, you can block stockfish registration if you want.

I don't think I could, and even if it is possible from a strictly legal point of view (which I doubt, but I am not a lawyer), it would be a violation of the central philosophy of a free program like Glaurung or Stockfish. When my program ships with a license that says that you are free to do whatever you like with it (apart from making it proprietary), what right do I have to tell you later that you are not allowed to use it in some tournament?

The whole point of free software like Glaurung is that it belongs to the entire community, and not to a single author. It isn't really my program any more than it is yours. I just happened to write most of the code. It is true that there is a copyright notice that says "Copyright (C) 2004-2009 Tord Romstad", but if you read the GNU GPL carefully, you will see that this copyright notice is there only to make it possible to use standard copyright laws to enforce the license and make sure the program remains free.

Therefore, I don't have any more right than anyone else to enter my program or a program based on it in the CCT. The guy who will be playing with Glaurung in the coming CCT actually did ask for my permission, which is a polite and friendly thing to do, but not technically required.

Tord

IMHO, a tournament should not be about "ownership" or "rights". It should be about where the "recognition" goes. I believe it is possible, even under GPL, to staple the name/s of the author/s to an entry. Then, the author/s is/are being part of a contest that they may or may not like to be part of. The organizers have all the privileges to state that they may want to ask the authors whether they want to be part of the tournament or not, as a requisite.

If you really tell me that a GPL program cannot list names of authors, then, it should not be allowed to participate at all. I do not believe that is the case, or the spirit of GPL. I believe the spirit is somehow analogous science (I do not think it is a coincidence Stallman is from MIT). The knowledge (source code) generated is free, but the recognition goes to the scientist/s (programers).

Note that, this is not my interpretation of licenses at all, it is just my modest opinion of what a tournament should be. The organizers should set the rules, not licenses.

Miguel

[Christopher Conkie]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum.

My comment was

I voted for yes, provided it does not endanger the participation of an entry by Ryan Benitez or Fabien Letouzey or another member of the Fruit team that would be the official Fruit representative, provided also that Fabien and Ryan don't object to Toga participating, - I can't imagine that Thomas Gaksch would object-, and it would be an official Toga entry by the TDDB forum, because I see that as the best way to limit the number of Toga entries to one actively developed fork of Fruit, a community effort from the TDDB programmers.

but when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

That's a serious accusation Eelco!

Regardless, the Answer should be in my opinion a resounding NO!

Why?

Miguel

Because the CCT is a programmers tournament Miguel, not a copy/paste tournament. What are the famed Toga Twits going talk about in the chat there? What insight will they be able to offer? Will they be talking about how they changed a few lines in great detail?

There is no such thing as an official Toga entry in anything.

And to Eelco I would say....the following is the bottom line.......

The way to limit Toga entries is not to have one.

Christopher

[michiguel]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum.

My comment was

I voted for yes, provided it does not endanger the participation of an entry by Ryan Benitez or Fabien Letouzey or another member of the Fruit team that would be the official Fruit representative, provided also that Fabien and Ryan don't object to Toga participating, - I can't imagine that Thomas Gaksch would object-, and it would be an official Toga entry by the TDDB forum, because I see that as the best way to limit the number of Toga entries to one actively developed fork of Fruit, a community effort from the TDDB programmers.

but when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

That's a serious accusation Eelco!

Regardless, the Answer should be in my opinion a resounding NO!

Why?

Miguel

Because the CCT is a programmers tournament Miguel, not a copy/paste tournament. What are the famed Toga Twits going talk about in the chat there? What insight will they be able to offer? Will they be talking about how they changed a few lines in great detail?

What if Fabien Letouzey personally enters Toga and list all the people that worked on the project as co-authors with the authorization of all of them? Would you still say no?

If the chat performance is an issue, then no operators should be allowed (it may not be a bad idea for some of the tournaments, but that is another issue).

Miguel

There is no such thing as an official Toga entry in anything.

And to Eelco I would say....the following is the bottom line.......

The way to limit Toga entries is not to have one.

Christopher