Draw Rules (halfmoveclock,repetition)

[Desperado]

ok, i looked up the fide-rules now.

http://www.arbitriscacchi.com/regolamenti/fide_e.pdf

no confusion anymore.

you are right.

a.

The point was: that a move is considered as executed if the piece has been moved on the board, independent if the clock has been pressed.

b.
conclusion: if move 100 is done (in the sense of _a._) (before giving the the turn to the opponent by pressing the clock) the claim can be done.

which now leads for sure to: hmc >= 100

Thx a lot...

[Fguy64]

well, in a real OTB game, if you are the player making the claim, then you must do so before you press your clock. In OTB chess you are within your rights to say "I am about to make this move which creates a 3-fold repetition and claim a draw" stop the clock, and ask for a ruling from the tournament director or arbiter if need be.

not sure if that helps you answer your question though.

as for 50 move, I would say 50 moves by player making the claim, the second player need only have made 49

It is actually _both_. Both players must have made 50 moves since the last non-capture/non-pawn-push. Once that is satisfied, the side on move can make the claim, or not if he so chooses. But both have to have made 50 reversible moves for a claim to be made.

well lets put it differently. Suppose that from the start of the game, both players just move their knights, and no captures are made. The claim that I am making is that Black is the first player that can claim a draw. If you agree with me on this point, then it's just a matter of semantics. If you are saying that White is the first player that can claim the draw, then I will have to stand corrected.

[Desperado]

well, in a real OTB game, if you are the player making the claim, then you must do so before you press your clock. In OTB chess you are within your rights to say "I am about to make this move which creates a 3-fold repetition and claim a draw" stop the clock, and ask for a ruling from the tournament director or arbiter if need be.

not sure if that helps you answer your question though.

as for 50 move, I would say 50 moves by player making the claim, the second player need only have made 49

It is actually _both_. Both players must have made 50 moves since the last non-capture/non-pawn-push. Once that is satisfied, the side on move can make the claim, or not if he so chooses. But both have to have made 50 reversible moves for a claim to be made.

well lets put it differently. Suppose that from the start of the game, both players just move their knights, and no captures are made. The claim that I am making is that Black is the first player that can claim a draw. If you agree with me on this point, then it's just a matter of semantics. If you are saying that White is the first player that can claim the draw, then I will have to stand corrected.

Exactly. From the view of the start position _Black Player_ may get the
first possibility to claim for draw.

Or in other words. the _SECOND_ player (from the view of the initial-position where the increment starts) gets the first chance.

(as i tried to explain in my last post)

cheers

[bob]

well, in a real OTB game, if you are the player making the claim, then you must do so before you press your clock. In OTB chess you are within your rights to say "I am about to make this move which creates a 3-fold repetition and claim a draw" stop the clock, and ask for a ruling from the tournament director or arbiter if need be.

not sure if that helps you answer your question though.

as for 50 move, I would say 50 moves by player making the claim, the second player need only have made 49

It is actually _both_. Both players must have made 50 moves since the last non-capture/non-pawn-push. Once that is satisfied, the side on move can make the claim, or not if he so chooses. But both have to have made 50 reversible moves for a claim to be made.

well lets put it differently. Suppose that from the start of the game, both players just move their knights, and no captures are made. The claim that I am making is that Black is the first player that can claim a draw. If you agree with me on this point, then it's just a matter of semantics. If you are saying that White is the first player that can claim the draw, then I will have to stand corrected.

That is not quite correct. FIDE rules say that _both players must have played reversible moves for the previous 50 moves. In your example, black could claim the draw, and after that either side could claim the draw on their move unless a non-reversible move is played.

[Fguy64]

well, in a real OTB game, if you are the player making the claim, then you must do so before you press your clock. In OTB chess you are within your rights to say "I am about to make this move which creates a 3-fold repetition and claim a draw" stop the clock, and ask for a ruling from the tournament director or arbiter if need be.

not sure if that helps you answer your question though.

as for 50 move, I would say 50 moves by player making the claim, the second player need only have made 49

It is actually _both_. Both players must have made 50 moves since the last non-capture/non-pawn-push. Once that is satisfied, the side on move can make the claim, or not if he so chooses. But both have to have made 50 reversible moves for a claim to be made.

well lets put it differently. Suppose that from the start of the game, both players just move their knights, and no captures are made. The claim that I am making is that Black is the first player that can claim a draw. If you agree with me on this point, then it's just a matter of semantics. If you are saying that White is the first player that can claim the draw, then I will have to stand corrected.

Exactly. From the view of the start position _Black Player_ may get the
first possibility to claim for draw.

Or in other words. the _SECOND_ player (from the view of the initial-position where the increment starts) gets the first chance.

(as i tried to explain in my last post)

cheers

Youare now saying that Black makes the claim on his 50th move.

If that is true, that makes me right all along it's not >100, it's >99. But my read from Bob Hyatt's post that it is white that can make the first claim, in which case the is in fact >100 as the condition to claim a draw.

[xsadar]

well, in a real OTB game, if you are the player making the claim, then you must do so before you press your clock. In OTB chess you are within your rights to say "I am about to make this move which creates a 3-fold repetition and claim a draw" stop the clock, and ask for a ruling from the tournament director or arbiter if need be.

not sure if that helps you answer your question though.

as for 50 move, I would say 50 moves by player making the claim, the second player need only have made 49

It is actually _both_. Both players must have made 50 moves since the last non-capture/non-pawn-push. Once that is satisfied, the side on move can make the claim, or not if he so chooses. But both have to have made 50 reversible moves for a claim to be made.

well lets put it differently. Suppose that from the start of the game, both players just move their knights, and no captures are made. The claim that I am making is that Black is the first player that can claim a draw. If you agree with me on this point, then it's just a matter of semantics. If you are saying that White is the first player that can claim the draw, then I will have to stand corrected.

That is not quite correct. FIDE rules say that _both players must have played reversible moves for the previous 50 moves. In your example, black could claim the draw, and after that either side could claim the draw on their move unless a non-reversible move is played.

Sorry Bob, but you are not quite correct yourself. From the FIDE Laws of Chess:

9.3 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if:
a. he writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, which shall result in thelast50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or
b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each playerwithout the movement of any pawn and without any capture.

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... ew=article

Condition (a) means 50 reversible (or castling) moves must have been played by one player and 49 by the other so long as his 50th move would have also been reversible (or a castling move) if he had made it on the board.

In computer chess we typically make the move and then claim the draw on the opponent's turn instead of (a), but that is problematic since the opponent could potentially move before we make our draw claim. As an example, one time in a human vs. human game on FICS I ran into this problem. I sent a draw offer (since ics doesn't distinguish between an offer and a claim) followed by my drawing move. Unfortunately my opponent was quick (and abusing the system besides) and rejected my draw offer before I made my drawing move and used premove to get a move in before I could send another draw offer, so FICS didn't give me the draw that rightfully should have been mine. (Fortunately I did get it a little later though.)

[Fguy64]

cool, we are all squared away then. Mr Hoffman, I only just noticed now your post about looking up the FIDE rule. so actually it was settled some time ago, I just didn't realize it.

[Desperado]

1.
=========

example:

turn: w hmc: 0 moved: true hmcInc: 1 claimDraw: false PressingClock(switchRightToMove): true
turn: b hmc: 1 moved: true hmcInc: 2 claimDraw: false PressingClock(switchRightToMove): true
...
turn: b hmc: 99 moved: true(*) hmcInc: 100 claimDraw: YES PressingClock(switchRightToMove): FALSE

*: here the move is considered as done(that makes the confusion)!

white doesn t get back the turn.
In other words Black can(has to,if he wants) claim draw,
before giving up the right to move.


2. (to Mike)
==========

That castle is(or counts) a reversible move is new to me !
is that really the case ?

regards.

[Desperado]

1.
=========

example:

turn: w hmc: 0 moved: true hmcInc: 1 claimDraw: false PressingClock(switchRightToMove): true
turn: b hmc: 1 moved: true hmcInc: 2 claimDraw: false PressingClock(switchRightToMove): true
...
turn: b hmc: 99 moved: true(*) hmcInc: 100 claimDraw: YES PressingClock(switchRightToMove): FALSE

*: here the move is considered as done(that makes the confusion)!

white doesn t get back the turn.
In other words Black can(has to,if he wants) claim draw,
before giving up the right to move.


2. (to Mike)
==========

That castle is(or counts) a reversible move is new to me !
is that really the case ?

regards.

PS on 1: while hmc is incremented on the conditions of article 9.3
PS on 2: because castling isnt neither a pawn move nor a capture
it should be incremented too, although it is a non-reversible
move ?!? (correct ?)

[hgm]

Fide rules are quite clear about this: 100 consecutive reversible plies make a claimable draw. Castling is considered reversible. E.p. rights or castling rights are not taken into account. (e.g. destroying castling or e.p. rights do not make a move irreversible.)

Like with any draw claim, if you are the player that moves to create the draw condition, you must claim the draw before you move, and tell the referee on what move you base the claim. If the draw condition already exists before you move, you can claim it immediately.