S.Taylor wrote:I just now found out, to my astonishment, that this is about to be implemented, and at great costs for usage (maybe even 750 euro per year).
It will GREATLY ruin my interest in Rybka 4, and greatly ruin the whole hobby.
I can think of many terrible things this will cause.
I really hope it will be cancelled.
Please tell us more about the terrible things it can cause.
Without knowing the details, it is possible to imagine a situation in which it may have an undesirable effect on top-level correspondence chess.
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
Well, I expected that response. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see a difference without knowing the business models that he has in mind.
Most people can now afford a quad. Octals are very expensive. It is possible to compensate for the difference in output between a quad and an octal running similar software. However, if he gives people the option of a super-strong program, not available on the open market and running on a very large cluster, then those who can't afford to access it may be at a disadvantage of 200 or more points. Top correspondence players are often playing 20 or more games at a time. It could make the hobby very expensive indeed if one is to remain competitive.
Last edited by K I Hyams on Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
S.Taylor wrote:I just now found out, to my astonishment, that this is about to be implemented, and at great costs for usage (maybe even 750 euro per year).
It will GREATLY ruin my interest in Rybka 4, and greatly ruin the whole hobby.
I can think of many terrible things this will cause.
I really hope it will be cancelled.
Please tell us more about the terrible things it can cause.
Without knowing the details, it is possible to imagine a situation in which it may have an undesirable effect on top-level correspondence chess.
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
Well, I expected that response. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see a difference without knowing the business models that he has in mind.
Most people can now afford a quad. Octals are very expensive. It is possible to compensate for the difference in output between a quad and an octal running similar software. However, if he gives people the option of a super-strong program, not available on the open market and running on a very large cluster, then those who can't afford to access it are at a disadvantage of 200 or more points.
So you're assuming that Vasik has a +200 Elo cluster version of Rybka compared to Rybka 3 running on a quad
I strongly doubt that and the latest tournaments comfirm this....Cluster Rybka wins the latest tournaments with a very tiny margin....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
S.Taylor wrote:I just now found out, to my astonishment, that this is about to be implemented, and at great costs for usage (maybe even 750 euro per year).
It will GREATLY ruin my interest in Rybka 4, and greatly ruin the whole hobby.
I can think of many terrible things this will cause.
I really hope it will be cancelled.
Please tell us more about the terrible things it can cause.
Without knowing the details, it is possible to imagine a situation in which it may have an undesirable effect on top-level correspondence chess.
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
Well, I expected that response. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see a difference without knowing the business models that he has in mind.
Most people can now afford a quad. Octals are very expensive. It is possible to compensate for the difference in output between a quad and an octal running similar software. However, if he gives people the option of a super-strong program, not available on the open market and running on a very large cluster, then those who can't afford to access it are at a disadvantage of 200 or more points.
So you're assuming that Vasik has a +200 Elo cluster version of Rybka compared to Rybka 3 running on a quad
I strongly doubt that and the latest tournaments comfirm this....Cluster Rybka wins the latest tournaments with a very tiny margin....
Dr.D
No, I am not assuming anything. I don't know enough to assume anything, none of us do. I was speculating.
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
So you're assuming that Vasik has a +200 Elo cluster version of Rybka compared to Rybka 3 running on a quad
I strongly doubt that and the latest tournaments comfirm this....Cluster Rybka wins the latest tournaments with a very tiny margin....Dr.D
What I miss is the logic in such statements. If Rybka 3 is now 2 years old, if we know that its code has been stolen and published, why then it's a wonder that the wins are becoming more and more difficult? Of course other commercial competitors adopted the illegally published tricks of R 3.
What is beyond me is another truth. That we have here people out of computerchess who are enjoying without shame illegal, robbed, corrupted and criminal results of such surreal "tournaments".
What makes me confident again, is the fact that even a foulplay (soccer goals with hand intervention stuff of things) do not in the longer run change the differences between a genius and his eager follow-ups, they might haste all they can but they wont be able to suddenly become as creative as the real artist. Ok, the genie (like Bob likes to tell) came out of the bottle and all of Vasik's friends could take a snuff, but that was it. Snuffers cant become genies. That is like in soccer again. Germany, Italy, New Zealand or France can once win the title, but nobody has ever denied that Brazil is and remains the true Wch. After Richard Lang we have a new best-ever Champion! Vas!
Rolf
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
Even more disappointing that the released UCI versions will be artificially weakened to create incentive for people to use the online version. The online version will also be updated regularly, so if you want bugfixes you can have them at a very generous price of hundreds of dollars.
No, thanks. I will take my money elsewhere.
There was a poll to establish if the perception was that Vas had lost his mind and apparently 53% of members who responded thought that he had. Maybe we should put together a charity to send the one and only "veritable" psychologist to see if he is in need of some counseling services
S.Taylor wrote:I just now found out, to my astonishment, that this is about to be implemented, and at great costs for usage (maybe even 750 euro per year).
It will GREATLY ruin my interest in Rybka 4, and greatly ruin the whole hobby.
I can think of many terrible things this will cause.
I really hope it will be cancelled.
Please tell us more about the terrible things it can cause.
Without knowing the details, it is possible to imagine a situation in which it may have an undesirable effect on top-level correspondence chess.
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
Well, I expected that response. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see a difference without knowing the business models that he has in mind.
Most people can now afford a quad. Octals are very expensive. It is possible to compensate for the difference in output between a quad and an octal running similar software. However, if he gives people the option of a super-strong program, not available on the open market and running on a very large cluster, then those who can't afford to access it are at a disadvantage of 200 or more points.
So you're assuming that Vasik has a +200 Elo cluster version of Rybka compared to Rybka 3 running on a quad
I strongly doubt that and the latest tournaments comfirm this....Cluster Rybka wins the latest tournaments with a very tiny margin....
Dr.D
No, I am not assuming anything. I don't know enough to assume anything, none of us do. I was speculating.
Thank you....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
playjunior wrote:
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
The difference I see is that if you hire something it is not yours. E.g. you cannot include it in your collection.
And that's one of the many reasons why this project will die before it see the sunlight....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Hart wrote:Even more disappointing that the released UCI versions will be artificially weakened to create incentive for people to use the online version. The online version will also be updated regularly, so if you want bugfixes you can have them at a very generous price of hundreds of dollars.
No, thanks. I will take my money elsewhere.
There was a poll to establish if the perception was that Vas had lost his mind and apparently 53% of members who responded thought that he had. Maybe we should put together a charity to send the one and only "veritable" psychologist to see if he is in need of some counseling services
He does not need any charity: it seems he already has his psychologist.
And his psychologist publicly defends his client.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
Hart wrote:Even more disappointing that the released UCI versions will be artificially weakened to create incentive for people to use the online version. The online version will also be updated regularly, so if you want bugfixes you can have them at a very generous price of hundreds of dollars.
No, thanks. I will take my money elsewhere.
There was a poll to establish if the perception was that Vas had lost his mind and apparently 53% of members who responded thought that he had. Maybe we should put together a charity to send the one and only "veritable" psychologist to see if he is in need of some counseling services
He does not need any charity: it seems he already has his psychologist.
And his psychologist publicly defends his client.
The bigger problem Slobo is that his psychologist is a nutcase
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
S.Taylor wrote:I just now found out, to my astonishment, that this is about to be implemented, and at great costs for usage (maybe even 750 euro per year).
It will GREATLY ruin my interest in Rybka 4, and greatly ruin the whole hobby.
I can think of many terrible things this will cause.
I really hope it will be cancelled.
Please tell us more about the terrible things it can cause.
Without knowing the details, it is possible to imagine a situation in which it may have an undesirable effect on top-level correspondence chess.
How? Right now if you're very rich you can buy hardware which is >>>> regular player's hardware which gives you an advantage. Is this any different between being rich and having access to an engine which gives you an advantage? I see no difference whatsoever.
Well, I expected that response. I wouldn't expect you to be able to see a difference without knowing the business models that he has in mind.
Most people can now afford a quad. Octals are very expensive. It is possible to compensate for the difference in output between a quad and an octal running similar software. However, if he gives people the option of a super-strong program, not available on the open market and running on a very large cluster, then those who can't afford to access it may be at a disadvantage of 200 or more points. Top correspondence players are often playing 20 or more games at a time. It could make the hobby very expensive indeed if one is to remain competitive.
This makes 0 sense. You can afford a quad. I can afford an octal. durrr can afford any hardware money can buy. Right now, money can buy advantage for me and much more money can buy much more advantage. What exactly are you complaining about?
If he does so, you don't have to buy your own cluster any more but can hire his, with all the advantages that you don't have to maintain it. It's very likely that because of this you will get better worth for your money. And, maybe he hopes some professional players/federations will use it, because now none of them uses hardware/engine parameter tuning because, well, they need someone who would maintain it.
