The future of Crafty

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Dann Corbit
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Dann Corbit »

yanquis1972 wrote:i guess you mean because now there is much stronger open source freeware? i suppose it's not as simple as just taking bits & pieces and adding & removing from them to crafty's code (well obviously). crafty's always been a couple hundred elo behind the competition in terms of strength so it seems like an odd question to me. just not what i'd have thought to ask. interesting, but i imagine the answer is 50 pages of text none of which i could understand.
Crafty had a pretty good run at Jakarta.
His daddy (cray blitz) won the world championship (IIRC).

Whether or not crafty is the strongest engine on earth is irrelevant. Crafty is a national treasure. As to how far crafty will go in advancement -- that depends on how much energy Dr. Hyatt wants to put into it. Don't forget -- he has a day job.
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Dann Corbit wrote: Crafty is a national treasure.
Surely International?
zullil
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by zullil »

yanquis1972 wrote:i guess you mean because now there is much stronger open source freeware? i suppose it's not as simple as just taking bits & pieces and adding & removing from them to crafty's code (well obviously). crafty's always been a couple hundred elo behind the competition in terms of strength so it seems like an odd question to me. just not what i'd have thought to ask. interesting, but i imagine the answer is 50 pages of text none of which i could understand.
Well, at this point I almost regret posting, since I obviously haven't been able to articulate my question. My fault. :cry:

Let me try something a bit more specific: Why, in general terms, is Crafty weaker than Stockfish, for example? Less accurate evaluation? Slower move generation? Slower search? Less selective search? etc? Any thoughts?

As I said in my initial post, I'm a big fan of Crafty, and appreciate the efforts of Bob Hyatt and his team. I didn't intend to knock anyone. I was just wondering what changes to Crafty might be of greatest benefit.
Dann Corbit
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Dann Corbit »

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: Crafty is a national treasure.
Surely International?
Yes, but then we won't get a Nicholas Cage movie about it.
Dann Corbit
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Dann Corbit »

zullil wrote: {snip}
As I said in my initial post, I'm a big fan of Crafty, and appreciate the efforts of Bob Hyatt and his team. I didn't intend to knock anyone. I was just wondering what changes to Crafty might be of greatest benefit.
If it were a simple answer then Crafty would already be as fast as Rybka.

Once the UAB Beowulf cluster is fully revived, Dr. Hyatt will be back on track for big progress -- because the best way to answer questions like those you pose above is by testing. This technique has lead to a startling advance in crafty strength (about +300 Elo since version 20).
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by bob »

Dann Corbit wrote:
zullil wrote: {snip}
As I said in my initial post, I'm a big fan of Crafty, and appreciate the efforts of Bob Hyatt and his team. I didn't intend to knock anyone. I was just wondering what changes to Crafty might be of greatest benefit.
If it were a simple answer then Crafty would already be as fast as Rybka.

Once the UAB Beowulf cluster is fully revived, Dr. Hyatt will be back on track for big progress -- because the best way to answer questions like those you pose above is by testing. This technique has lead to a startling advance in crafty strength (about +300 Elo since version 20).
I don't think speed is the issue. I'm not aware of any program that is searching faster on equal hardware, in terms of raw NPS. However, parts of the eval have been tuned to avoid some anti-computer stuff. There are other search ideas yet to be tried.

One thing is for sure, it can never be on top again unless we (a) close the source completely and then (b) work like crazy for a good while. We work pretty hard on this stuff at times, but then we release the source for everyone to see. You'd be surprised how many ideas from Crafty are used in other programs. You only have to read their source codes. :) Yet you won't find any code inside Crafty that was copied from anyone. That's by design, I might add. We already have more than enough engines using much of the code from Robo* and family. Do we need one more? We could spend 3 months and have a version of Crafty at least as strong as the best robo* out there. What's the point?
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Graham Banks
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Graham Banks »

bob wrote:[You'd be surprised how many ideas from Crafty are used in other programs. You only have to read their source codes. :) Yet you won't find any code inside Crafty that was copied from anyone. That's by design, I might add. We already have more than enough engines using much of the code from Robo* and family. Do we need one more? We could spend 3 months and have a version of Crafty at least as strong as the best robo* out there. What's the point?
A refreshing attitude in these troubled times. Good on you Bob. :)
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by LiquidNitrogenOverclocker »

zullil wrote:Why has Crafty been "several 100 elo behind the best for years?" Thanks for the replies.
In my opinion, you're asking why the Wright Brothers did not land on the moon. Crafty is a great program, with some key "firsts". Crafty pioneered the use of rotated bitboards, which were a "crazy" idea at the time. Talk about thinking out of the box! Crafty also was the first (I think) program to use a parallel searching mechanism. Even after showing us the way to do it, this is still not an easy thing to program.

The Crafty source is freely available which is a huge disadvantage. Programmers can use the concept of the engine match to spawn their own reports of orthogonal evaluation term weights which are aimed at directly exploiting any chess program's evaluation function. There have been papers written on how to do this. Crafty, not doubt, is part of any program's climb up the ladder. You don't hear about all of the private research that resulted in Crafty's wins, you only hear about the public losses after it "trained the opposition."

Recall that Crafty descended from Cray Blitz.

Cray Blitz won the World Computer Chess Championships in 1983 and 1986 (and there were none in 1984 and 1985, so this was a "repeat").

So, it was the best of the best for years.

Recently, I think there has been a "pendulum swing" of sorts. Back in the day, Ken Thompson wrote a paper about Belle playing games against itself with different search depths (3 ply vs. 4 ply, 4 ply vs. 5 ply, 5 ply vs. 6 ply, all the way up to 8 ply vs. 9 ply).

The result convinced everyone that the deeper searching program would always be vastly superior. Hans Berliner, creator of HiTech, performed a similar experiment. He disabled some of the IQ of HiTech, and had it play a "dumber, faster" version of the program, called LoTech. LoTech won the majority of the games, much to Berliner's dismay.

The thinking back then: Get deeper searches, even at the expense of knowledge!

But now, we are seeing how intelligent implementations of "knowledge" (with the amazing Rybka) allows a program to really outperform "blind deep searches". This cuts against the grain of the Crafty design metaphor.

I was programming during a time when it was questioned whether a chess program would EVER become a master. Then it became a matter of: "Will a software program" on a "microcomputer" ever become a master? Even after tremendous progress was made, NOBODY thought a program could ever defeat a Grandmaster, until Bent Larsen lost a game. Then SURELY the human World Champion would never lose to a computer, then Kasparov went down to Richard Lang's "chess genius."

In short, your question is one asked after programming geniuses poured lifetimes of effort into the field, most of the information has since become shared, and you have the gumption to pose your question the way you do?

Hey, Christopher Columbus, how come you can't outrun the Nuclear Submarine?
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Lusakan
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Lusakan »

Come on people, the anwer is simple:

Crafty on principle advances exclusively on original ideas and gets zero ideas from outside. It never experienced the fruit revolution. :cry:
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Mincho Georgiev
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Re: The future of Crafty

Post by Mincho Georgiev »

I don't think that pure elo strength is relevant for that matter. Crafty (and cray blitz as well) is one of the ultimate chess programming textbooks!
This is the main reason a lot of ideas from Bob and his team to be used in so many engines. Besides, speaking about Crafty, we are not just talking about a chess engine. This is a complete CHESS PROGRAM, which is something completely different from just another analyzing module. So, considering Crafty's and Bob's team ROLE in chess programming in general, I don't really think that neither speed, nor ELO strength matters.