Rybka disqualified and banned from World Computer Chess Cham

[Dann Corbit]

"Don't believe when you're told "There's no free lunch!" There is Linux."

That's one expensive free lunch:
http://shop.novell.com/store/novell/Dis ... ID.2872000
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/cata ... *.4b748952
http://www.ubuntu.com/business/services/server
http://store.mandriva.com/product_info. ... cts_id=433
http://www.pantek.com/linux.php?subsect ... gwod6VF0XQ
etc.

I suppose if you make a razor and give it away and sell the blades, then the razor was free in some sense.

BTW, I am a Linux fan, and I think it is the best platform for servers available.

[Terry McCracken]

http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/rybka ... pionships/

In case people haven't read that.

I suppose people like Bob, Theron and Zach are happy. They managed to help get rid of competition they were never smart enough to beat. On the way out, 2 things: 1. If i wanted a world champion engine, I would never be stupid enough to get anything from Crafty. Thats's like copying from VWagen to improve a Rolls Royce. Nobody is that f***ing stupid. 2. Concerning the picture in the post with Karpov and the horse.... and the explanation of the one on the "left" and the one on the "right" would have been crucial if it had been a picture of Hyatt, Zach or Christophe and the horse was turned around. One would wonder if mods are brave enough to leave this thread. My money is on chicken-shit. Rest of my money would ride on "I don't give a rats ass."

Your vile accusations against Bob, Zach, Christophe et al are reprehensible. You're talking out of you ass as usual filling the forum with a vile stench! I wouldn't bat an eye if you were banned or even sued. You've asked for it!

As for Vas, he was that stupid. Vas is a hack and I hope Fabien sues his ass.

As for the skills of Bob Hyatt you haven't a clue and if Christophe wanted the best program all he would have needed to do is take the same route Vas did and it would be better than Rybka or Houdini as he's that talented !

All you condemn, the pioneers of chess, have far more talent then a plagerist!

The earth is flat in your world. You're a fanatic.

[Chan Rasjid]

"Don't believe when you're told "There's no free lunch!" There is Linux."

That's one expensive free lunch:
http://shop.novell.com/store/novell/Dis ... ID.2872000
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/cata ... *.4b748952
http://www.ubuntu.com/business/services/server
http://store.mandriva.com/product_info. ... cts_id=433
http://www.pantek.com/linux.php?subsect ... gwod6VF0XQ
etc.

I suppose if you make a razor and give it away and sell the blades, then the razor was free in some sense.

BTW, I am a Linux fan, and I think it is the best platform for servers available.

I am no expert, but if we talk about business computing, I don't see why the unixes are not good enough unless Windows is more stable or we encourage our employees to play computer games.

I am using Linux Mint and it runs without crashing and it is free! A miracle!

Rasjid.

[Dann Corbit]

"Don't believe when you're told "There's no free lunch!" There is Linux."

That's one expensive free lunch:
http://shop.novell.com/store/novell/Dis ... ID.2872000
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/cata ... *.4b748952
http://www.ubuntu.com/business/services/server
http://store.mandriva.com/product_info. ... cts_id=433
http://www.pantek.com/linux.php?subsect ... gwod6VF0XQ
etc.

I suppose if you make a razor and give it away and sell the blades, then the razor was free in some sense.

BTW, I am a Linux fan, and I think it is the best platform for servers available.

I am no expert, but if we talk about business computing, I don't see why the unixes are not good enough unless Windows is more stable or we encourage our employees to play computer games.

Linux operating sytems are more than good enough. If I owned a business, I will fill my server room with Linux boxes. But I would budget a big pile of money for Linux support, which would problably be similar in size to the pile of money needed for Windows "Software Licenses".

A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.
An operating system, by any other name, would cost as much.

I am using Linux Mint and it runs without crashing and it is free! A miracle!

Rasjid.

Running without crashing is a miracle? That's setting the bar pretty low.


I guess that Linux in general is just as reliable as Windows for a server.
If you want a thousand connections on a box, then Linux is the way to go.

On the other hand, for a desktop, I think Windows is the better choice.

IMO-YMMV

[michiguel]

Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

If the Rybka=Fruit/Crafty connection is so strong and the evidence so damning, then why did this take over 5 years to unearth? Five and a half years since December 2005! It should be noted , for whatever it’s worth , that a huge majority of the panel members who investigated and condemned Rajlich are his direct competitors, ie, authors of rival programs. These same competitors wonder why Rajlich did not give up the Rybka source code for their perusal.

As a layperson in computer matters (I am an attorney), I don’t get this at all. There is no Rybka source code to compare, so apparently various circumstantial evidence is cited. Fruit was the strongest engine. Then Rybka was the strongest engine. And yet their evaluation functions were found to overlap by 64%. Call the police! The panel points out that weaker engines had less overlap as compared to the 2 strongest engines (Fruit and Rybka). Naturally, engines that are closer to the “chess truth” will overlap more. I don’t see how an evaluation overlap of 64% is “nearly identical”. Geneticists claim that human beings share 96% of the same DNA (aka “source code”) with chimpanzees. Perhaps the ICGA will ban God from claiming that Human Beings are uniquely in His image since the ALmighty seems to have plagiarized the source code for chimpanzees when coding humans..

[Reply]

The similarity in search and eval are not very condemnatory in my view.

The duplication of errors and dead code is.

I do not think that it has been demonstrated that Rybka has broken the law. But it seems to me that their finding is not unreasonable as far as breaking the conditions of the contest. While he does cite the named programs as sources of information, I find that things like initializations that only have purpose for Steven J. Edwards tablebase files being duplicated should make everyone uneasy about it.

Correct, it makes me feel uneasy about it. But, I do not understand how the ICGA even mentions it in its final decision when this code was not used in any of its tournaments (according to the report's summary). I feel disappointed at Vas copying, but at the way the whole process was managed too. I feel disappointed at the report (there are some facts, but some "opinions" should have been left out), at the ICGA, and at this whole community, for many, many reasons. I am not pretending to change anything and I do not even think anybody even cares what I think.
I am saying this only to be fair with my own conscience. That's all.

I really hate to be involved in a hobby surrounded by things that suck.

Miguel

IMO-YMMV

I downloaded all the documents and printed them. I am reading them now.

[Dann Corbit]

Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

If the Rybka=Fruit/Crafty connection is so strong and the evidence so damning, then why did this take over 5 years to unearth? Five and a half years since December 2005! It should be noted , for whatever it’s worth , that a huge majority of the panel members who investigated and condemned Rajlich are his direct competitors, ie, authors of rival programs. These same competitors wonder why Rajlich did not give up the Rybka source code for their perusal.

As a layperson in computer matters (I am an attorney), I don’t get this at all. There is no Rybka source code to compare, so apparently various circumstantial evidence is cited. Fruit was the strongest engine. Then Rybka was the strongest engine. And yet their evaluation functions were found to overlap by 64%. Call the police! The panel points out that weaker engines had less overlap as compared to the 2 strongest engines (Fruit and Rybka). Naturally, engines that are closer to the “chess truth” will overlap more. I don’t see how an evaluation overlap of 64% is “nearly identical”. Geneticists claim that human beings share 96% of the same DNA (aka “source code”) with chimpanzees. Perhaps the ICGA will ban God from claiming that Human Beings are uniquely in His image since the ALmighty seems to have plagiarized the source code for chimpanzees when coding humans..

[Reply]

The similarity in search and eval are not very condemnatory in my view.

The duplication of errors and dead code is.

I do not think that it has been demonstrated that Rybka has broken the law. But it seems to me that their finding is not unreasonable as far as breaking the conditions of the contest. While he does cite the named programs as sources of information, I find that things like initializations that only have purpose for Steven J. Edwards tablebase files being duplicated should make everyone uneasy about it.

Correct, it makes me feel uneasy about it. But, I do not understand how the ICGA even mentions it in its final decision when this code was not used in any of its tournaments (according to the report's summary). I feel disappointed at Vas copying, but at the way the whole process was managed too. I feel disappointed at the report (there are some facts, but some "opinions" should have been left out), at the ICGA, and at this whole community, for many, many reasons. I am not pretending to change anything and I do not even think anybody even cares what I think.

I value your opinion and I think that you are a very fair person.

I am saying this only to be fair with my own conscience. That's all.

I really hate to be involved in a hobby surrounded by things that suck.

Miguel

IMO-YMMV

I downloaded all the documents and printed them. I am reading them now.

I have yet to form a final opinion on the matter.
I do think that in the end, there are no victories here, no matter where my opinion about guilt and innocence might settle down.

[Chan Rasjid]

Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

If the Rybka=Fruit/Crafty connection is so strong and the evidence so damning, then why did this take over 5 years to unearth? Five and a half years since December 2005! It should be noted , for whatever it’s worth , that a huge majority of the panel members who investigated and condemned Rajlich are his direct competitors, ie, authors of rival programs. These same competitors wonder why Rajlich did not give up the Rybka source code for their perusal.

As a layperson in computer matters (I am an attorney), I don’t get this at all. There is no Rybka source code to compare, so apparently various circumstantial evidence is cited. Fruit was the strongest engine. Then Rybka was the strongest engine. And yet their evaluation functions were found to overlap by 64%. Call the police! The panel points out that weaker engines had less overlap as compared to the 2 strongest engines (Fruit and Rybka). Naturally, engines that are closer to the “chess truth” will overlap more. I don’t see how an evaluation overlap of 64% is “nearly identical”. Geneticists claim that human beings share 96% of the same DNA (aka “source code”) with chimpanzees. Perhaps the ICGA will ban God from claiming that Human Beings are uniquely in His image since the ALmighty seems to have plagiarized the source code for chimpanzees when coding humans..

[Reply]

The similarity in search and eval are not very condemnatory in my view.

The duplication of errors and dead code is.

I do not think that it has been demonstrated that Rybka has broken the law. But it seems to me that their finding is not unreasonable as far as breaking the conditions of the contest. While he does cite the named programs as sources of information, I find that things like initializations that only have purpose for Steven J. Edwards tablebase files being duplicated should make everyone uneasy about it.

Correct, it makes me feel uneasy about it. But, I do not understand how the ICGA even mentions it in its final decision when this code was not used in any of its tournaments (according to the report's summary). I feel disappointed at Vas copying, but at the way the whole process was managed too. I feel disappointed at the report (there are some facts, but some "opinions" should have been left out), at the ICGA, and at this whole community, for many, many reasons. I am not pretending to change anything and I do not even think anybody even cares what I think.
I am saying this only to be fair with my own conscience. That's all.

I really hate to be involved in a hobby surrounded by things that suck.

Miguel

IMO-YMMV

I downloaded all the documents and printed them. I am reading them now.

I think there is too much of witch-hunting which is bad. Vasik did some copying which was wrong and he had been 'stoned' and so all's over for the copying that added no ELO. The fact is there are not many who could write a program near that of Rybka's though some suggest it is not too big a deal.

We are not encouraging the use of someone else's code to start with and tell otherwise nor is cut and paste encouraged; but how to write 'original' code as many have claimed copyrights to ideas and numbers.

So let them claim their program is original and a top class program.

Rasjid.

[michiguel]

Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

If the Rybka=Fruit/Crafty connection is so strong and the evidence so damning, then why did this take over 5 years to unearth? Five and a half years since December 2005! It should be noted , for whatever it’s worth , that a huge majority of the panel members who investigated and condemned Rajlich are his direct competitors, ie, authors of rival programs. These same competitors wonder why Rajlich did not give up the Rybka source code for their perusal.

As a layperson in computer matters (I am an attorney), I don’t get this at all. There is no Rybka source code to compare, so apparently various circumstantial evidence is cited. Fruit was the strongest engine. Then Rybka was the strongest engine. And yet their evaluation functions were found to overlap by 64%. Call the police! The panel points out that weaker engines had less overlap as compared to the 2 strongest engines (Fruit and Rybka). Naturally, engines that are closer to the “chess truth” will overlap more. I don’t see how an evaluation overlap of 64% is “nearly identical”. Geneticists claim that human beings share 96% of the same DNA (aka “source code”) with chimpanzees. Perhaps the ICGA will ban God from claiming that Human Beings are uniquely in His image since the ALmighty seems to have plagiarized the source code for chimpanzees when coding humans..

[Reply]

The similarity in search and eval are not very condemnatory in my view.

The duplication of errors and dead code is.

I do not think that it has been demonstrated that Rybka has broken the law. But it seems to me that their finding is not unreasonable as far as breaking the conditions of the contest. While he does cite the named programs as sources of information, I find that things like initializations that only have purpose for Steven J. Edwards tablebase files being duplicated should make everyone uneasy about it.

Correct, it makes me feel uneasy about it. But, I do not understand how the ICGA even mentions it in its final decision when this code was not used in any of its tournaments (according to the report's summary). I feel disappointed at Vas copying, but at the way the whole process was managed too. I feel disappointed at the report (there are some facts, but some "opinions" should have been left out), at the ICGA, and at this whole community, for many, many reasons. I am not pretending to change anything and I do not even think anybody even cares what I think.

I value your opinion and I think that you are a very fair person.

I know you do and of course I value your opinion too. I am sorry, when I said the whole community, I meant as a body (if there is such a thing...), not every single individual. There are trends, common behaviors, consensus... etc. that I do not like.

Miguel

I am saying this only to be fair with my own conscience. That's all.

I really hate to be involved in a hobby surrounded by things that suck.

Miguel

IMO-YMMV

I downloaded all the documents and printed them. I am reading them now.

I have yet to form a final opinion on the matter.
I do think that in the end, there are no victories here, no matter where my opinion about guilt and innocence might settle down.

[Roger Brown]

I think there is too much of witch-hunting which is bad. Vasik did some copying which was wrong and he had been 'stoned' and so all's over for the copying that added no ELO. The fact is there are not many who could write a program near that of Rybka's though some suggest it is not too big a deal.

We are not encouraging the use of someone else's code to start with and tell otherwise nor is cut and paste encouraged; but how to write 'original' code as many have claimed copyrights to ideas and numbers.

So let them claim their program is original and a top class program.

Rasjid.

Hello Chan Rasjid,

You say that there was copying, proven copying of code that added no Elo.

What would have been the reason for doing that?

Both the copying and the fact that what was copied added no Elo I mean.

Incidentally, how do you know the Elo added per line of copied code?

Curious and curiouser....

Later.

[Chan Rasjid]

I know of people who genuinely believe that religion is the source of all evil. I think we have an analogy here:
"Open source chess program is the scourge of chess programming".

I remember in some stories about people who did good deeds and when they meet with their Lord, they cited their good deeds; but the Good Lord told them:-

"You did good deeds and have already been rewarded as many praises have been accorded you by men. Now you enter by the door on the left hand side."

If you release your source code of a competitive game program and don't want others to clone it, what the hack do you do it for.

Rasjid.