Another programmer poll ?

[Rebel]

Okay, I put something together after having considered all your input, thanks so much. I would like to receive some feedback before I officially launch it, this poll better be good.

I have chosen to keep things as simple as possible as it will be hard enough to display the results of the few (I think) crucial questions in a satisfying way.

http://www.top-5000.nl/poll.htm

In item 1, probably better to make it a checkbox, to catch more than 1 reason.

Excellent advice! Done accordingly.

In item 4, 100 is too small, with massive resources at present make it a minimum of 500 rating points, after all this is a world championships.

It's one of those things that need refinement by the TD, from strong free open sources you can't expect a 500 elo improvement requirement, from low rated free open sources however you can. Folks can put their suggestions, objections in the comment section.

[lucasart]

Ed, you're turning this the wrong way. It's not about including derivatives or not. Even if ICGA decided to allow any clone to participate, still, there would be very little interest in their tournament.

I can only speak for myself, of course. But here are the reasons why I would never consider participating in such an event:

• time: well you need 1 week basically. some people have jobs to go to, and better things to do with their limited vacation (eg. go on a real holiday).
• money: considering I make my program entirely for free, and don't gain a cent from it, it doesn't make a lot of sense to fly to the other end of the world, pay for hotel, as well as invest in expensive hardware (plus transport cost of that hardware).
• relevance: frankly the format of this contest makes the result more or less a coin toss, statistically speaking. see the difference with TCEC... On top of that, there is the unjust effect of using different hardware. Frankly what kind of stupid car race would mix a formula 1, a kart, and bycycle ?

Sure the fact that all the interesting engines are not allowed to compete, because the ICGA is run by/for legacy commercial engine programmers who use it as a marketing event, only adds to its uselessness. But that's not even the main reason on my list.

The question is not how to make ICGA (or CSVN) more interesting. The only way to make them interesting is to make them more like TCEC. The question is: why do these dinosaures still exist ?

There is no point in trying to save ICGA and CSVN. They are dying. And it's a good thing.

[Evert]

relevance: frankly the format of this contest makes the result more or less a coin toss, statistically speaking. see the difference with TCEC... On top of that, there is the unjust effect of using different hardware. Frankly what kind of stupid car race would mix a formula 1, a kart, and bycycle ?

That is a concern, certainly for amateurs, but one that could be ameliorated by the organisation providing suitable hardware. Which requires funding, obviously.

However, the outcome being determined in part by chance - well, is that necessarily a bad thing? Many games people play have an element of chance. In fact, games that are entirely predictable are pretty boring. The fact that people get addicted to gambling (not a good thing, by the way), is sufficient indication that having a (large) element of chance does not make a game unplayable. The purpose of a tournament is not to determine the strongest player anyway.

If the outcome of TCEC is just a ranking of engines in the order of the CCRL list, is there really a point?

The question is not how to make ICGA (or CSVN) more interesting. The only way to make them interesting is to make them more like TCEC.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but I disagree (although I have a very limited interest in any of the mentioned tournaments). There's already a TCEC, no point in having another one. Being different is good.
There's a niche for a TCEC, but it's taken. Best to try something else.

[hgm]

The only way to make them interesting is to make them more like TCEC.

Indeed you only speak for yourself. To me TCEC is totally without interest. It does absolutely nothing that I could not do myself. It lasts incredibly long. Interaction with other participants, in the extremely rare case you would find them on-line at all, is cumbersome (communicate by typing messages).

TCEC is as uncomparable to an event like CSVN or ICGA as comparing a microbe to a dynosaur. I'd go for the dynosaur every time.

You just don't know what you are talking about, as you have never been to any of these events. Of course there wil always be some that abhor face-to-face contact with like-minded people, and on-site meetings will then definitely not be their cup of tea, but most people are not like that at all.

[Houdini]

I can only speak for myself, of course. But here are the reasons why I would never consider participating in such an event:

• time: well you need 1 week basically. some people have jobs to go to, and better things to do with their limited vacation (eg. go on a real holiday).
• money: considering I make my program entirely for free, and don't gain a cent from it, it doesn't make a lot of sense to fly to the other end of the world, pay for hotel, as well as invest in expensive hardware (plus transport cost of that hardware).
• relevance: frankly the format of this contest makes the result more or less a coin toss, statistically speaking. see the difference with TCEC... On top of that, there is the unjust effect of using different hardware. Frankly what kind of stupid car race would mix a formula 1, a kart, and bycycle ?

LOL. Is that a clone or a derivation of my 4 year old post about WCCC?

[mcostalba]

There is no point in trying to save ICGA and CSVN. They are dying. And it's a good thing.

I have nothing against a (small) bunch of old timers that meet themselves around a beer and few chess boards remembering the good old days.

I agree it can be a bit irritating that they call themselves "world champions", but it's ok if this make them feel better: I see the related thread on main forum had a kind of revitalizing effect for many of them, they start discussing and arguing as if it was real, and I am glad for them. I wish them all the best

Regarding the fact that ICGA is done by/for legacy commercial engines, this is a clear fact. But I am know much more inclined to accept this than few years ago: at the end of the day chess engine business is very small and people don't get rich...and because I think I am one of the guys that contributed to make it so, I really cannot blame them to find ways to rise some (small) money.

[Rebel]

Lucas, you probanly right that this poll is going nowhere, to know for sure there is this poll.

Perhaps you know the Scott Mckenzie song:

I understand the sentiments.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you're going to San Francisco
Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
If you're going to San Francisco
You're gonna meet some gentle people there

For those who come to San Francisco
Summertime will be a love-in there
In the streets of San Francisco
Gentle people with flowers in their hair

All across the nation such a strange vibration
People in motion
There's a whole generation with a new explanation
People in motion people in motion

For those who come to San Francisco
Be sure to wear some flowers in your hair
If you come to San Francisco
Summertime will be a love-in there

If you come to San Francisco
Summertime will be a love-in there

[Rebel]

There is no point in trying to save ICGA and CSVN. They are dying. And it's a good thing.

I have nothing against a (small) bunch of old timers that meet themselves around a beer and few chess boards remembering the good old days.

It's abosutely not about that young man

I think that every self respecting sport has (or should have) its own world championship even if the sport has more important events. Like in cycling the "Tour de France" is the top event of the year with only a few candidates for the title, the WC is a casino event with 20-30 potential winners, still the man of the day becomes world champion and most of the top-dogs attend.

[Rebel]

Okay, poll active, programmer email sent, just unsubscribe if you don't like it, I won't bother you again.

http://www.top-5000.nl/poll.htm

[hgm]

I don't think this is a generation conflict at all. Young people do attend CSVN and ICGA events, and enjoy them just as much as the 'old timers'.

The problem we are really dealing with is that there are a few people that are obsessed with waging a vendetta against on-site events, for reasons they can only understand themselves. It is certainly not because they ever have attended one, and know what they are talking about. They just have decided for themselves by some sort of divine revelation that on-site events are evil, and should be exorcised.

Now this is of course not new at all; there have always been people like that. The bad luck is that at this very moment the principal programmers of a few of the strongest engines have embraced this point of view. It seems more a random fluctuation rather than a trend. I don't believe that the internet intrinsically makes people anti-social and afraid to leave their homes, and that we are evolving into a society like Asimov's Solaria.

It is pointless to reason with people whose decisions are not based on reason, but on prejudice. No engine will be King of the Hill forever, though. The current top engines will be surpassed by other engines sooner than many think, and they will have other authors, that are unlikely to share the prejudices of the current ones.