A super pawn for chess variants, characteristics

[musketeerchess]

Hi
Very interesting brain storming.

If you look at Leopard and Cannon i think that they are a better choice

In Seirawan, the new pieces are very strong +++

In Musketeer Chess, the new pieces are also strong but still the balance is respected (a piece of a strength that ranges between a Rook and a Queen, but it depends of the position.

May be the rules that permit the pieces to enter the battle field are difficult to accept, but those rules are made to make the strategy of both sides clear from the beginning which is the essence of chess, as the initial position of all the pieces are known from the beginning. Even in FRC 960 it's the case.

I understand that this rule is the most difficult part to accept. What do you suggest sothat this rules is softened?

[musketeerchess]

Hi
I think it's too much change. May be a super pawn could go back one or two squares, but this should certainly be allowed just once.

[Ferdy]

Hi
The super pawn is intended to make possible for each one of us to make his own variant, customize his classic chess set.

In my thoughts i didn't intend to add the super pawns replacing part or all the classic pawns with the two new pieces. I find this too much for an 8x8 board.

What i intended is a declination of musketeer chess, where some or all the pawns are replaced by a super pawn. This super pawn must not be much much stronger than a classic pawn, but it must add some features that could help reduce some of the drawbacks of classic pawns such us blocked position etc.

What name would you prefer to give to the super pawn?

Please don't forget to vote! it's important

The idea of not allowing the pawn to go backward is that in the battle field they should not abandon there post. Also there is this rule of fifty move draw rule for guaranteed progress if pawn is moved because it will advance to promote, what would happened if the pawn will go backward? Is there progress if the pawn go backward, what if the opponent will also go backward. I think blocked positions are normal.

Going backward with a capture is fine with me. The pawn in g3 can capture back the black bishop in g2.

[Jhoravi]

I like this idea especially the e1/e8 squares.
Even when the king cannot formally castle and by just playing f3, then Kf2 and dropping a new piece at e1 looks very interesting, I actually played a computer doing this in one of my test games.

How about creating a variant like this, the drop square is known in advance, it is e1 and e8. Only one new piece is introduced so as to ease transition as you have said, and also to not clutter the board too much. Question is what would be the movement of this piece? perhaps B+N combo or K+N combo primarily for king safety in mind.

The most widely accepted two new pieces are B+N and R+N combo (Chancellor and Archbishop) suggested by Capablanca and later implemented in Gothic and Embassy Chess. It's the most reasonable addition because the current Queen is B+R therefore B+N and R+N are naturally missing. The point is that their properties are already present in standard chess making them easier to accept!

I salute GM Seirawan who managed to fit the two missing pieces on our standard 8x8 board though I disagree about the whole first rank as drop square because it strengthens the defense too much for example the Bishop Fianchetto is immediately protected.

My other complain is about the immediate dropping of the new pieces simultaneously with the current move because it looks like two moves and doesn't feel natural. It also clutters the board too fast! IMO the best way is to introduce the new piece is during the next move after the desired square is already vacant. For example 1.Nf3 e5, 2.Cg1 meaning the Chancellor occupies g1 only after opponent replies ..e5!

[Ferdy]

I like this idea especially the e1/e8 squares.
Even when the king cannot formally castle and by just playing f3, then Kf2 and dropping a new piece at e1 looks very interesting, I actually played a computer doing this in one of my test games.

How about creating a variant like this, the drop square is known in advance, it is e1 and e8. Only one new piece is introduced so as to ease transition as you have said, and also to not clutter the board too much. Question is what would be the movement of this piece? perhaps B+N combo or K+N combo primarily for king safety in mind.

The most widely accepted two new pieces are B+N and R+N combo (Chancellor and Archbishop) suggested by Capablanca and later implemented in Gothic and Embassy Chess. It's the most reasonable addition because the current Queen is B+R therefore B+N and R+N are naturally missing. The point is that their properties are already present in standard chess making them easier to accept!

I salute GM Seirawan who managed to fit the two missing pieces on our standard 8x8 board though I disagree about the whole first rank as drop square because it strengthens the defense too much for example the Bishop Fianchetto is immediately protected.

My other complain is about the immediate dropping of the new pieces simultaneously with the current move because it looks like two moves and doesn't feel natural. It also clutters the board too fast! IMO the best way is to introduce the new piece is during the next move after the desired square is already vacant. For example 1.Nf3 e5, 2.Cg1 meaning the Chancellor occupies g1 only after opponent replies ..e5!

This is indeed not complicated, normal move is separate from drop move. And also any player can drop the new pieces at anytime on the first rank. There is no such thing as virgin squares, and drop time expiration, which S-chess has.

Created an engine to play like this, call it ChessShogi v1-00. The new pieces are same with seirawan chess.



Add -variant seirawan in the special winboard option during installation and disable legality check in the gui.

Download:
https://app.box.com/s/jfulnmu1ymm4su3ucxjvjqju1ovp0uv9

I have not yet searched if this variant has already existed. If this is new, then be prepared to make a name for this variant.

[Jhoravi]

Created an engine to play like this, call it ChessShogi v1-00. The new pieces are same with seirawan chess.

Hey that was fast man! I gota try it! Is it possible to limit the drop squares to "d1,e1" and also "d8,e8" for the opponent? Because too much freedom to drop anywhere on the base rank allows the new piece to defend the castled king immediately making it difficult to attack.
thanks

[Ferdy]

Created an engine to play like this, call it ChessShogi v1-00. The new pieces are same with seirawan chess.

Hey that was fast man! I gota try it! Is it possible to limit the drop squares to "d1,e1" and also "d8,e8" for the opponent? Because too much freedom to drop anywhere on the base rank allows the new piece to defend the castled king immediately making it difficult to attack.
thanks

I already have seirawan chess engine, so it is not that difficult to modify and create this variant.

Version 1-01
1. Added option to drop to D1/E1/D8/E8 squares only.
Goto Engine ->Engine#1 setting, then enable the checkbox D1E1D8E8Drop.
2. Enable piece legal move board highlight

With this option the center files are full of pieces this is based from my game trials. It seems the full drop gives the player some options and allow them to create opening stragegy.

Download:
https://app.box.com/s/13trk5wgf1fmyx6zwfbpnj7l1l1ozbtn

[Jhoravi]

With this option the center files are full of pieces this is based from my game trials. It seems the full drop gives the player some options and allow them to create opening stragegy.

Maybe because your Evaluation Function adds the piece values of the Elephant and Hawk only when they appear on board? In that case the engine will rush those pieces out as quick as possible!
But it's just my guess

Another possible reason for the full pieces center is the Lack of proper Opening Book. I remember testing Rybka without opening book wanders both its Knights in the opening in a strange way.

I'm going to test it 2morow. cheers!

[hgm]

Secondly, what I noticed in TCEC and elite SuperGM tournaments is that boring draw or boring game often happens when queens are exchanged in the opening. ...

The nearest variant I can find that is nearest to this dream is Seirawan Chess. ...

Have you considered Werewolf Chess? It is quite similar to orthodox Chess, as Werewolf and Queen (which it replaces) move nearly alike. But the Werewolf cannot be traded easily out of the game.

Of course the presence of the Queen in a game with the orthodox setup could also be protected, by making it similaly contageous. Or by adopting an anti-trading rule for it as in Elven Chess or Mighty-Lion Chess.

[hgm]

Maybe because your Evaluation Function adds the piece values of the Elephant and Hawk only when they appear on board? In that case the engine will rush those pieces out as quick as possible!
But it's just my guess

Engines in general do not care whether they realize a gain early or late in the PV. Only the score in the end position of the PV counts. Evaluating as you suggest would cause severe horizon effect, however. Engines would sacrifice minor after minor just to delay the introduction of the Queen-class pieces to beyond the search horizon, to discover later (with 3 pieces down) that they could not postpone it forever after all. So therefore no engine would evaluate that way. Pieces in hand might actually be worth more than on the board, depending on the number of possibilities you still have left to introduce them.
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