Computer Chess Openings: Modern defense

[Lion]

the difference quoted for the poster is 0.3.
We can discuss for ever if this is too much or not but IMHO, it is reasonable.

after 1.e4 my human evaluation is the following:

e5 (spanish) is about "="
c5 is also about "=" but the asymmetrical position tends to probably inscreasing chances of a 1-0 or 0-1

e6 black has to fight for a "=" and not sure he can optain it.
c6 black has to fight for a "=" and not sure he can optain it.

Other lines/openings does IMHO not give "="
Black may still draw but will suffer.

[Graham Banks]

After 1. e4 g6 Stockfish6 gives a score of -0.5 and after 1.e4 e5 it gives a score of -0.2.

So should I conclude now that g6 is not a good move or is there something wrong with Stockfish6 ?

I'll post a whole bunch of lines soon that I'm going to include in my opening book.
Nothing wrong with the Modern Defense.

[Kohflote]

Glad to hear that, Graham, and thank you.

If you have the time, I surely look forward if you can test Pirc, 150 Attack.

Best regards,
Koh, Kah Huat

[Henk]

the difference quoted for the poster is 0.3.
We can discuss for ever if this is too much or not but IMHO, it is reasonable.

after 1.e4 my human evaluation is the following:

e5 (spanish) is about "="
c5 is also about "=" but the asymmetrical position tends to probably inscreasing chances of a 1-0 or 0-1

e6 black has to fight for a "=" and not sure he can optain it.
c6 black has to fight for a "=" and not sure he can optain it.

Other lines/openings does IMHO not give "="
Black may still draw but will suffer.

I am not so sure about e6 too. I'm never able to keep the d4 pawn when playing against French defense. Even if I defend it three times.
For there is Qb6 cd4 Nc6 Nf5.

[Lion]

IMHO - lines to fight for an advantage vs the French are either Nc3 or Nd2.
I am not convinced by e5 vs the French while I am vs the Caro-Kann

[Werewolf]

After 1. e4 g6 Stockfish6 gives a score of -0.5 and after 1.e4 e5 it gives a score of -0.2.

So should I conclude now that g6 is not a good move or is there something wrong with Stockfish6 ?

The truthful answer to your question is twofold:

a) 1...g6 is not quite as good as 1...e5, ...c5, ...c6, ...e6.

b) But Stockfish overrates its space advantage for white, i.e. black is worse, but not THAT MUCH worse than white after 1...g6.

The big problem for white in the Pirc / Modern / Hippo is that although he has a clear space advantage, the pieces haven't "locked horns" yet and there's no easy way to exploit the extra space. Even modern engines aren't that good at assessing positions like this yet. (Komodo might be a bit better, I think they did some work on these kind of positions)

[neelbasant]

After 1. e4 g6 Stockfish6 gives a score of -0.5 and after 1.e4 e5 it gives a score of -0.2.

So should I conclude now that g6 is not a good move or is there something wrong with Stockfish6 ?

Stockfish Always prefers 1...e6 over 1....e5 on my pc..

Anyone can confirm.

[jdart]

I think some lines are ok, for example:

1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. e4 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. Be3 Bxf3 7. Bxf3 e5 8. d5 Nd4

has been played at a high level.

But there are lots of transpositions, especially to the KID, which computers tend to play badly.

--Jon

[Graham Banks]

After 1. e4 g6 Stockfish6 gives a score of -0.5 and after 1.e4 e5 it gives a score of -0.2.

So should I conclude now that g6 is not a good move or is there something wrong with Stockfish6 ?

I'll post a whole bunch of lines soon that I'm going to include in my opening book.
Nothing wrong with the Modern Defense.

These seem to be fine,
I note that in the online Chessbase database, 1...g6 has the best success rate against e4 and has been preferred by players of a higher average Elo rating than other responses.

1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. Be3 0-0 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. g3 Nbc6 8. Be3 0-0 9. Bg2 Ne5 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. h4 Nbc6 8. Be3 h6 9. Qd2 f5 10. exf5 Nxf5 11. Nxf5 Bxf5 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. h4 Nbc6 8. Be3 h6 9. Qd2 f5 10. exf5 Nxf5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 d6 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 Nc6 5. Nc3 h5 *
1. e4 g6 2. c4 e5 3. g3 Nc6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. f5 gxf5 8. exf5 Nb4 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. e5 dxe5 8. fxe5 Nh5 9. Ne2 Be6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. 0-0 e5 8. dxe5 dxe5 9. f5 Nb4 10. Bg5 Nxd3 11. Qxd3 Qxd3 12. cxd3 c6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be2 c5 6. dxc5 Qa5 7. Qd3 Qxc5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be2 c5 6. Nf3 0-0 7. dxc5 Qa5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f4 Nf6 4. Bd3 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 a6 6. Be3 0-0 7. Nec3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 a6 6. Be3 0-0 7. Nbc3 c6 8. g4 b5 9. h4 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 a6 6. Be3 0-0 7. Nbc3 c6 8. Ng3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 a6 6. Be3 0-0 7. Nbc3 c6 8. a4 a5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Ng3 exd5 9. cxd5 h5 10. Be2 a6 11. a4 Re8 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Ng3 exd5 9. cxd5 h5 10. Be2 a6 11. a4 Nh7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Ng3 exd5 9. cxd5 h5 10. Bg5 Qb6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Ng3 Re8 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 a6 7. Be3 b6 8. d5 c5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 a6 7. Be3 b6 8. Qd2 c5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 a6 7. d5 b5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nbc3 c6 7. Bg5 a6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Nec3 e5 7. d5 Nh5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Ne2 0-0 6. Be3 c5 7. Qd2 Nc6 8. d5 Ne5 9. Nec3 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Be3 c6 6. Nc3 0-0 7. Bd3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Be3 c6 6. Nc3 0-0 7. Bd3 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Be3 c6 6. Nc3 0-0 7. Qd2 a6 8. 0-0-0 b5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bd3 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. f3 Nf6 4. c4 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. h4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. h4 h5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. c3 Nf6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 a6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Bg5 Bg7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. c3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Re8 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 e5 8. Re1 b6 9. a4 a5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 e5 8. Re1 h6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 e5 8. Re1 c6 9. Nbd2 Qc7 10. a4 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 c5 8. Bc2 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 c5 8. Re1 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 c6 8. Be3 e5 9. Nbd2 Qc7 10. a4 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. h3 c6 8. Re1 e5 9. Nbd2 Qc7 10. a4 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. Bg5 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. Re1 e5 8. Nbd2 b6*
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. c3 Nbd7 7. Nbd2 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. Nbd2 c6 7. c3 Qc7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 0-0 6. Nbd2 c6 7. Re1 Qc7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. 0-0 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 0-0 6. c3 c5 7. dxc5 dxc5 8. Bc4 Nc6 9. 0-0 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 0-0 6. c3 c5 7. dxc5 dxc5 8. Qe2 Nc6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bd3 Bg7 5. Nbd2 0-0 6. 0-0 c6 7. Re1 Qc7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. Be3 a6 6. h3 0-0 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. Be2 a6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. e5 dxe5 7. dxe5 Nd5 8. h3 0-0 9. 0-0 Be6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 e5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8. 0-0 Qe7 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. Nc4 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 e5 7. c3 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 0-0 7. 0-0 a5 8. a4 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 0-0 7. h3 e5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 0-0 7. e5 dxe5 8. dxe5 Nd5 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 c6 6. Bb3 0-0 7. Nbd2 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 a6 5. 0-0 e6 6. Bb3 Ne7 7. Re1 0-0 8. Nbd2 Nd7 9. Nf1 c5 10. c3 b5 11. h4 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 a6 5. 0-0 e6 6. Bb3 Ne7 7. Re1 Nd7 8. c3 b6 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Bc4 a6 5. 0-0 e6 6. Bb3 Nd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. c3 b6 5. Bd3 Nd7 6. 0-0 Bb7 7. Re1 e5*
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. c3 Nf6 5. Bd3 Nbd7 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. c4 e5 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. Be3 0-0 *
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. c4 e5 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4 Bg7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. g3 *

[Henk]

After 1. e4 g6 Stockfish6 gives a score of -0.5 and after 1.e4 e5 it gives a score of -0.2.

So should I conclude now that g6 is not a good move or is there something wrong with Stockfish6 ?

There is a reason that the Elite GMs regularly play 1...e5 against each other and almost never 1...g6. It is a better move. But in my opinion not nearly as much better as the above evals imply.
Both Komodo and Stockfish are tuned for best results, and these results are achieved with evals that wildly overstate transitory positional factors. I don't fully uonderstand why this is so or what if anything we can do about it, but I'm open to good ideas.

Perhaps caused by an automatic tuner stopping at a boundary in the search space ? Maybe step size too big when searching for optima. I don't know.