Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 7228
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
Location: Gutweiler, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Hi Vivien,

the "book" problem: Three or four other engines produced the same problem (Igel for an example).
Minic do nothing in lost position I have more times.

At the moment after 17.704 games 23 program crashes from two engines.

Code: Select all

Maybe interesting for programmers:
Program crashes = 23

Schooner: Please have a look in the message from July 14th, 2020 (20:00)
Schooner in draw positions vs. Andscacs after 203 moves (R22, not replayed = ½:½)
Minic with black in lost position vs. Demolito after 67 moves (R21, not replayed = 1:0)
Minic with black in lost position vs. Igel after 85 moves (R20, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in draw position vs. Senpai after 203 moves (R16, not replayed = ½:½)
Minic with black in lost position vs. SmarThink after 64 moves (R15, not replayed = 1:0)
Minic with black in lost position vs. RubiChess after 98 moves (R14, not replayed = 1:0)
Minic with black in lost position vs. Demolito after 79 moves (R13, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner with black in lost position vs. RubiChess after 203 moves (R12, not replayed = 1:0)
Minic with white in lost position vs. Xiphos after 100 moves (R12, not replayed = 0:1)
Minic with black in lost position vs. RubiChess after 100 moves (R10, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in draw position vs. Nemorino after 203 moves (R10, not replayed = ½:½)
Schooner in draw position vs. Fritz 16 (Rybka) after 203 moves (R09, not replayed = ½:½)
Minic with white in lost position vs. Stockfish after 90 moves (R07, not replayed = 0:1)
Minic with black in lost position vs. SmarThink after 71 moves (R07, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in draw position vs. RubiChess after 203 moves (R07, not replayed = ½:½)
Minic with black in lost position vs. RubiChess after 88 moves (R06, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in draw position vs. Fizbo after 203 moves (R05, not replayed = ½:½)
Minic with white in lost position vs. SmarThink after 75 moves (R04, not replayed = 0:1)
Minic with black in lost position vs. Winter after 85 moves (R04, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in lost position vs. Fritz 17 after 203 moves (R03, not replayed = 1:0)
Minic with white in lost position vs. RubiChess after 81 moves (R03, not replayed = 0:1)
Minic with black in lost position vs. rofChade after 88 moves (R01, not replayed = 1:0)
Schooner in draw position vs. Fire after 203 moves (R01, not replayed = ½:½)
Stefan Meyer-Kahlen is very hard in UCI standards.
Other GUI programmers try to fix protocol problems engine programmers created.
I know that from my long-time work with Marin Blume around Arena or with the the work I do with Sergei (Chess-Assistant).

I am quite sure that you never checked your engine with the UCI-Mother-GUI Shredder.
Type debug if Shredder GUI loaded!

I wrote in the last 25 years so many messages to engine programmers with error messages.
My Arena Forum are around 2006 full of such material.

Allways the same:
Ponder = On problems
Time-Management problems.
Problems with endgame databases.
Crashes before mate.
For a mate in 8, engine give output ... mate in 16, next move mate in 12, next move no mate and so one.

Allways the same problems!
And in most of cases problems with UCI standard implemantion.
And in most of cases "very new" enignes.
And in most of cases engines often updated.

Since many years I never wrote such messages because I do here enough.
I am not the beta tester from Minic.
But I like your program and I hope you can find and fix the problems.
Please check it in self work under Shredder GUI.

Best
Frank
voffka
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:58 pm
Location: Ukraine
Full name: Volodymyr Shcherbyna

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by voffka »

Hello Frank,
Frank Quisinsky wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:32 pm the "book" problem: Three or four other engines produced the same problem (Igel for an example).
Which version of Igel?
Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 7228
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
Location: Gutweiler, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Hi Vivien,

I added all information to the tourney on the detail page:
Please read here:
http://www.amateurschach.de/main/_fcp-tourney-2020.htm

If you will not reading on my site (I can't more do as to public all information around the tourney)

The Intel i9-10900 have 10 cores.
10 matches without ponder runs to the same time.
768Mb for hash-settings.

I have 32Gb RAM inside the PC. Corsiar D432Gb 3200-16 Vengeance
I am using Samsung 970 EVO Plus

Each of the 10 cores are runs with 4,9Ghz

Again, please have a look on the detail page.
All information are on the detail page.
All other information are in the download file.

Best
Frank
Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 7228
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
Location: Gutweiler, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Start of the tourney: June 26th, 2020 Igel 2.5.0 are the current version.

Again:
You can find all games, statistic files, match-stats (tool by Ed you can see which programs have a higher average for book moves, this programs produced the "book" problem).

More as to public all what I have I can't do.

Best
Frank

PS: Again, please check your engine with the UCI-Mother GUI Shredder and here type "debug".
I am quite sure you never checked your engine with the UCI-Mother GUI Shredder.
So you never will see problems if you are using GUIs the GUI programmer try to correct typical engine errors.
Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 7228
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
Location: Gutweiler, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Oh, message to Igel are not from Vivien.
Sorry!

In my download file in directory:
_current-shredder-files_after ...

Is the PGN from Shredder GUI.
End of many games you can see "book".

All engines used FEOBOS and should have a book average from 8-9 moves.
FEOBOS = balanced positions 3 moves after ECO codes formed, end positions checked by 10 strong engines with 1 minute and 6 cores, 4GHz on Intel i7-5630 analyzes (bugfree opening book, have a look on my FEOBOS selection).

Code: Select all

<pre><b>Engine                 Depth       Time   Games     Moves  Average Forfeit  Book Depth     MIDG   EARLY    ENDG    LATE</b>
Fizbo 2.0 BMI2 x64     24.09  319:30:02     840     72071    15.96     0     6977  8.31    21.39 | 21.36 | 23.49 | 29.93
Minic 2.33 x64         32.93  294:45:38     840     68154    15.57     0     6807  8.10    28.17 | 28.93 | 32.17 | 43.38
Combusken 1.2.0 x64    28.69  298:12:49     840     69089    15.54     0     7687  9.15    25.59 | 25.99 | 26.54 | 35.73
Fritz 16 (Rybka) x64   35.36  295:55:50     840     69185    15.40     0     6835  8.14    28.11 | 29.36 | 34.20 | 50.33
Texel 1.07 BMI2 x64    22.99  310:58:42     840     72756    15.39     0     6806  8.10    21.50 | 22.43 | 20.96 | 28.33
SlowChess BC 2.2 x64   28.25  289:14:29     840     67859    15.34     0     7182  8.55    27.08 | 27.49 | 26.89 | 32.32
SmarThink 1.98 AVX2    23.76  290:46:01     840     68764    15.22     0     6837  8.14    22.89 | 24.26 | 23.02 | 26.23
Winter 0.8 x64         28.11  286:39:56     840     68119    15.15     0     7574  9.02    23.31 | 24.04 | 27.72 | 39.28
Vajolet2 2.8 BMI2 x6   31.16  298:55:08     840     71318    15.09     0     7428  8.84    27.43 | 27.70 | 29.40 | 39.67
Wasp 4.00 Modern x64   29.66  291:01:45     840     69694    15.03     0     7006  8.34    26.53 | 27.33 | 27.30 | 38.19
Defenchess 2.2 POP x   32.08  298:11:02     840     71674    14.98     0     9124 10.86    28.84 | 28.97 | 30.95 | 39.55
Monolith 2 PEXT x64    27.93  275:49:57     840     66306    14.98     0     6953  8.28    24.99 | 26.22 | 27.17 | 35.34
Booot 6.4 POP x64      33.21  267:15:30     840     64290    14.97     0     8281  9.86    29.65 | 29.94 | 33.00 | 42.12
Komodo 14.0 BMI2 x64   37.64  263:59:41     840     63703    14.92     0     7163  8.53    31.08 | 33.05 | 38.46 | 50.93
RubiChess 1.7.3 x64    35.93  292:14:05     840     70853    14.85     0     6997  8.33    34.06 | 35.88 | 36.59 | 38.13
Rodent IV 0.22 POP x   31.05  285:45:36     840     69608    14.78     0     7560  9.00    25.60 | 26.50 | 29.52 | 41.24
Arasan 22.0 BMI2 x64   34.01  290:51:58     840     70867    14.78     0     6669  7.94    29.91 | 30.63 | 33.15 | 42.87
iCE 4.0 v853 Modern    39.19  291:55:46     840     71744    14.65     0     7141  8.50    27.65 | 29.05 | 37.88 | 61.30
Andscacs 0.95 BMI2 x   28.93  277:41:20     840     68936    14.50     0     6824  8.12    26.48 | 27.77 | 28.86 | 33.55
Pedone 2.0 BMI2 x64    36.76  282:16:02     840     70214    14.47     0     6872  8.18    32.10 | 33.18 | 36.32 | 45.93
Shredder 13 x64        32.75  277:15:19     840     68976    14.47     0     6803  8.10    29.02 | 30.18 | 32.46 | 40.59
Nirvanachess 2.4 POP   31.02  268:40:23     840     67622    14.30     0     6777  8.07    26.69 | 27.46 | 29.91 | 40.12
Protector 1.9.0 x64    25.32  278:31:42     840     70122    14.30     0     6859  8.17    21.15 | 22.45 | 21.81 | 36.30
Hannibal 1.7 x64       32.82  290:11:33     840     73976    14.12     0     6663  7.93    26.95 | 28.24 | 32.09 | 43.84
Ethereal 12.25 PEXT    34.65  285:14:09     840     73104    14.05     0     6762  8.05    31.14 | 30.99 | 33.83 | 41.67
Laser 1.7 BMI2 x64     31.93  265:45:09     840     68538    13.96     0     6824  8.12    26.71 | 26.82 | 30.55 | 42.90
Houdini 6.03 Pro x64   28.81  256:08:21     840     67096    13.74     0     6893  8.21    26.01 | 26.91 | 28.25 | 35.63
Senpai 2.0 BMI2 x64    27.31  267:42:15     840     70436    13.68     0     7945  9.46    24.77 | 26.48 | 28.17 | 30.63
Demolito 2020-05-14    28.07  287:01:50     840     76045    13.59     0     6720  8.00    23.70 | 24.30 | 27.03 | 35.00
rofChade 2.3 BMI x64   26.07  278:09:30     840     73696    13.59     0     7267  8.65    27.86 | 28.13 | 26.71 | 22.82
Stockfish 11 BMI2 x6   38.26  251:14:38     840     66596    13.58     0     6918  8.24    32.88 | 33.87 | 38.19 | 49.06
Fire 7.1 POP x64       25.69  260:03:52     840     69766    13.42     0     7354  8.75    21.04 | 21.19 | 25.58 | 35.01
Critter 1.6a x64       23.51  262:11:59     840     70575    13.37     0     6908  8.22    20.50 | 21.54 | 24.72 | 26.96
Fritz 17 (Ginkgo) x6   29.15  259:14:27     840     69853    13.36     0     6808  8.10    25.67 | 26.42 | 26.88 | 39.47
Schooner 2.2 SSE x64   39.04  258:25:59     840     69897    13.31     0     6973  8.30    30.78 | 30.70 | 36.99 | 56.69
Xiphos 0.6 BMI2 x64    35.09  250:12:41     840     68143    13.22     0     7203  8.57    31.56 | 31.96 | 35.32 | 40.85
Nemorino 5.00 BMI2 x   26.97  255:47:42     840     71533    12.87     0     7638  9.09    23.31 | 23.36 | 26.85 | 34.27
Chiron 4 x64           30.19  257:33:29     840     72644    12.76     0     6831  8.13    25.95 | 26.97 | 31.83 | 35.62
Igel 2.5.0 BMI2 x64    29.18  241:44:55     840     68553    12.70     0    10391 12.37    26.43 | 26.80 | 28.66 | 36.49
Equinox 3.30 x64       23.81  239:59:33     840     72799    11.87     0     7196  8.57    22.49 | 23.10 | 24.37 | 25.33
GullChess 3.0 BMI2 x   22.45  234:51:37     840     72269    11.70     0     6843  8.15    19.51 | 20.11 | 22.81 | 27.25


Legend

<b>Depth</b>     : Overall average search depth
<b>Time</b>      : Total time engine used
<b>Moves</b>     : Total moves engine played
<b>Average</b>   : Average time per move in centi-seconds
<b>Forfeit</b>   : Games engine lost due to time forfeit
<b>Book</b>      : Moves played from opening book plus average depth

<b>MIDG</b>      : Average search depth during the opening and middle game
<b>EARLY</b>     : Average search depth during the middle game without Queens, the so called early end game
<b>ENDG</b>      : Average search depth during the end game
<b>LATE</b>      : Average search depth during the late end game

List is sorted on <i>Average Time</i> indicating the engine that uses the most time tops.
Best
Frank
User avatar
xr_a_y
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:28 pm
Location: France

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by xr_a_y »

Frank Quisinsky wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 pm Hi Vivien,

I added all information to the tourney on the detail page:
Please read here:
http://www.amateurschach.de/main/_fcp-tourney-2020.htm

If you will not reading on my site (I can't more do as to public all information around the tourney)

The Intel i9-10900 have 10 cores.
10 matches without ponder runs to the same time.
768Mb for hash-settings.

I have 32Gb RAM inside the PC. Corsiar D432Gb 3200-16 Vengeance
I am using Samsung 970 EVO Plus

Each of the 10 cores are runs with 4,9Ghz

Again, please have a look on the detail page.
All information are on the detail page.
All other information are in the download file.

Best
Frank
Thanks for the detailed info. All seems indeed correct. I ll follow your advice testing this GUI, this is always interesting to validate on a maximum number of various contexts. But I still wonder how a GUI can make Minic go depth 17 is 6s with KRK while the opponent is playing instantly! Maybe the outputs pgn of the GUI are quite false on this.
Guenther
Posts: 4718
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Guenther »

Frank Quisinsky wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:44 pm Start of the tourney: June 26th, 2020 Igel 2.5.0 are the current version.

Again:
You can find all games, statistic files, match-stats (tool by Ed you can see which programs have a higher average for book moves, this programs produced the "book" problem).

More as to public all what I have I can't do.

Best
Frank

PS: Again, please check your engine with the UCI-Mother GUI Shredder and here type "debug".
I am quite sure you never checked your engine with the UCI-Mother GUI Shredder.
So you never will see problems if you are using GUIs the GUI programmer try to correct typical engine errors.
Just for clarification about the 'book problem'. This is not really a problem of the engines.
Quite some engines simply send nothing, except the move, if it is e.g. a forced or easy move and it seems the Shredder GUI
attaches (book) to it then.
Even if it would not, Eds tool would wrongly asume a book move.

I guess Ed should not count moves above a certain move number as book move. (This will not remove all false cases, but most of them)
Otherwise it is difficult because a move made in 0 sec with no depth and no eval simply looks like a book move for his tool ;-)
https://rwbc-chess.de

[Trolls n'existent pas...]
User avatar
xr_a_y
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:28 pm
Location: France

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by xr_a_y »

xr_a_y wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:51 am I ll follow your advice testing this GUI, this is always interesting to validate on a maximum number of various contexts.
Oops, I have just understood that this GUI have a price ...
Guenther
Posts: 4718
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by Guenther »

xr_a_y wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:48 am
xr_a_y wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:51 am I ll follow your advice testing this GUI, this is always interesting to validate on a maximum number of various contexts.
Oops, I have just understood that this GUI have a price ...
Threre is a 30 days demo (WIN/Linux/MacOs) for free, with just 'slightly restrictions'. The site does not tell though which those are.
https://rwbc-chess.de

[Trolls n'existent pas...]
User avatar
xr_a_y
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:28 pm
Location: France

Re: Minic can not win with KNB vs. K (book moves, not a problem in match-stats)

Post by xr_a_y »

Thanks, missed it.