Chessqueen wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 9:12 am
lkaufman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 3:07 am
Marcus9 wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 12:29 am
pepechuy wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 12:08 am
Hi.
Interesting.
I would have thought that a pawn is worth a lot more than moving first.
Greetings.
Of course a pawn, especially d or e, worth more than first move, 49% are draw, probably 51% are win for Black, furthermore imbalance would be much greater with stronger player. However, how many games are been played here?
I've run hundreds of games between top engines at full strength at various time controls with one White pawn removed. If it's a rook pawn, most of the games are drawn, Black winning most of the others. If it's f2 or g2, must of the games are lost by White. These results are to be expected, since there is major compensation with rook pawn off, and none at all with f2 or g2 off. But with b2, c2, d2, or e2 removed, White usually draws nearly half the games, almost never wins a game, and loses the other half. It's not even particularly clear whether more time or threads helps White to draw or helps Black to win more. In all four cases, White has the first move plus a little extra mobility for the pawn, and although central pawns are more valuable, their removal gives more added mobility than c2 or b2, so all four cases are quite similar, White has maybe 0.3 pawn compensation, and being down 0.7 pawn is thought to be right at the win/draw line. If I had to bet, I would bet on Black to win rather than on White to draw, but all four positions are so near the loss/draw line that no one can tell whether they are lost or drawn with perfect play. Perhaps some of the four are drawn and others are lost. This means that all four of these positions are nearly ideal for Armageddon chess, in this case with White getting the draw odds. The only problem with using these positions for engine testing (with Armageddon rule) is that you can only play eight games before having to repeat the same pairing, and there are no opening books to provide variety, so you either have to generate them or just rely on MP for variety. This is very similar to the "No Black Short Castling" Armageddon chess promoted by myself and S. Pohl a while ago, which is also right on the win/draw line. Whether Black forfeiting short castling or White removing a pawn is more like normal chess is a subjective matter, hard to call.
The Main question to you Mr. Larry Kaufman is, do you believe that Komodo Dragon can beat Carlsen at T/C of 90 Minutes plus 10 seconds Bonus with the f2 pawn Odds? I will first test Stockfish at full strength vs Komodo Dragon with a limit Elo set to 2780 simulating the World Chess Champion Carlsen, to see what happen, can you predict the winner ?
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Result "?"]
[BlackElo "2780"]
[Time "02:07:03"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "5400+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/RNBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "10"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]
1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 d2-d4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 Qd1xd4 Ng8-f6 Nb1-c3 Bf8-e7
Bf1-e2 O-O O-O Bc8-g4 Bc1-e3 Nb8-d7 h2-h3 Bg4xf3 Be2xf3 c7-c6 Ra1-d1 Rf8-e8
Qd4-d2 Qd8-a5 Bf3-e2 Nd7-e5 a2-a3 Ne5-g6 Qd2-e1 Qa5-e5 Qe1-f2) -1.39/37
108} d5 {(d7-d5 a2-a3 d5xe4) +1.32/9} 2. exd5 {(e4xd5 Ng8-f6 Nb1-c3 Nf6xd5
Ng1-f3 Bc8-g4 Bf1-e2 e7-e6 Nc3xd5 Qd8xd5 c2-c3 Nb8-c6 O-O Bf8-d6 d2-d4 O-O
h2-h3 Bg4-h5 c3-c4 Qd5-f5 Kg1-h1 Qf5-e4 Be2-d3 Bh5xf3 Bd3xe4 Bf3xd1 Rf1xd1
Rf8-d8 Bc1-e3 Bd6-e7 Ra1-b1 a7-a5 Be3-f2 Be7-f6) -1.25/34 46} Qxd5 {(Qd8xd5
Ng1-f3 Bc8-g4) +1.32/9 0} 3. Nc3 {(Nb1-c3 Qd5-d6 d2-d4 Ng8-f6 Bf1-e2 Nb8-c6
Ng1-f3 a7-a6 O-O Bc8-g4 Bc1-e3 e7-e6 Qd1-d2 Bf8-e7 h2-h3 Bg4-f5 Nf3-h4
Bf5-g6 Ra1-d1 O-O-O Be2-f3 e6-e5 d4-d5 Nc6-d4 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Nh4xg6 h7xg6
Qd2xd4 Qd6-c5 Kg1-h1 Qc5xd4 Rd1xd4 Nf6-d7 Rf1-e1) -1.23/35 50} Qa5 {(Qd5-a5
h2-h3) +1.04/9 0} 4. Nf3 {(Ng1-f3 Ng8-f6 d2-d4 g7-g6 Bf1-d3 Bf8-g7 O-O
Bc8-g4 h2-h3 Bg4xf3 Qd1xf3 c7-c6 Nc3-e4 Nb8-d7 Bd3-c4 O-O c2-c3 e7-e6 a2-a4
Nf6xe4 Qf3xe4 Nd7-b6 b2-b4 Qa5-h5 Bc4-b3 a7-a5 b4-b5 c6xb5 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7
Qe4xe6 b5xa4 Qe6xf7+ Kg8-h8 Bb3xa4 Nb6xa4) -0.85/37 162} Nf6 {(Ng8-f6 d2-d4
g7-g6 Bf1-c4 Bf8-g7 O-O Nb8-c6 Qd1-e1 O-O) +0.91/9 0} 5. d4 {(d2-d4 Bc8-f5
Nf3-e5 c7-c6 Bf1-d3 Bf5xd3 Qd1xd3 Qa5-a6 Ne5-c4 e7-e6 O-O Bf8-e7 b2-b3 O-O
Qd3-g3 Nb8-d7 Bc1-g5 Nf6-h5 Qg3-e3 Be7xg5 Qe3xg5 Nh5-f6 a2-a4 h7-h6 Qg5-g3
Ra8-d8 Kg1-h1 Nf6-d5 Nc3-e4 c6-c5 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 d4xc5 Qa6-c6 Qg3-f2 Nd5-f6
Nc4-d6 b7-b6 b3-b4 b6xc5 b4xc5 Qc6-c7 a4-a5) -0.80/35 41} g6 {(g7-g6 Bc1-d2
Bf8-g7) +1.05/10 0} 6. Bc4 {(Bf1-c4 Bf8-g7 O-O O-O h2-h3 c7-c5 Bc1-e3 c5xd4
Qd1xd4 Nb8-c6 Qd4-h4 Qa5-b4 Ra1-b1 Bc8-e6 Bc4xe6 f7xe6 Qh4xb4 Nc6xb4 Be3-c5
Nb4xc2 Rf1-d1 b7-b6 Bc5xe7 Rf8-f7 Be7xf6 Bg7xf6 Rd1-d6 Ra8-e8 Nc3-e4 Bf6-g7
Rb1-d1 h7-h6 Ne4-c3 Bg7-f8 Rd6-d8 Bf8-c5+ Kg1-h2 Re8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Kg8-g7
Nf3-e5 Rf7-e7 Nc3-e4 Bc5-e3 Ne5-c4 Be3-f4+ g2-g3 Bf4-c7) -0.88/37 59} Bg7
{(Bf8-g7 Ra1-b1 O-O) +0.91/10 0} 7. O-O {(O-O O-O h2-h3 c7-c5 Bc1-e3 c5xd4
Qd1xd4 Nb8-c6 Qd4-h4 Qa5-b4 Ra1-b1 Bc8-e6 Bc4xe6 f7xe6 Qh4xb4 Nc6xb4 Be3-c5
Nb4xc2 Rf1-d1 b7-b6 Bc5xe7 Rf8-f7 Be7xf6 Bg7xf6 Nc3-e4 Bf6-g7 Rd1-d2 Nc2-b4
a2-a3 Nb4-d5 Ne4-g5 Rf7-e7 Ng5xe6 Re7xe6 Rd2xd5 Re6-e2 b2-b4 Ra8-c8 Rb1-e1
Re2-a2 Rd5-d7 Bg7-f8 Re1-e6 Rc8-c1+ Kg1-h2 Rc1-c2 Nf3-e1 Rc2-e2 Re6xe2
Ra2xe2) -0.64/38 71} Bg4 {(Bc8-g4 h2-h3 Bg4xf3 Qd1xf3 Nb8-c6 Bc4-b5 Qa5-b6
Bb5xc6+ b7xc6) +1.30/10 0} 8. h3 {(h2-h3 Bg4xf3 Qd1xf3 Nb8-c6 Bc1-e3 O-O
Bc4-b3 e7-e6 Ra1-d1 Ra8-d8 Nc3-e4 Nf6xe4 Qf3xe4 e6-e5 d4xe5 Qa5xe5 Qe4xe5
Bg7xe5 Rd1xd8 Nc6xd8 Rf1-d1 Nd8-c6 Kg1-f2 Rf8-d8 Rd1xd8+ Nc6xd8 c2-c3
Kg8-f8 Kf2-f3 b7-b6 g2-g4 Be5-d6 a2-a4 Kf8-e7 a4-a5 Bd6-c5 a5xb6 Bc5xb6
Be3-d2 c7-c6 Kf3-e4) -0.36/40 71} Bxf3 {(Bg4xf3 Qd1xf3 Nb8-c6 Bc1-e3 O-O
Nc3-e4 Nf6xe4 Qf3xe4 Qa5-b4 b2-b3 Nc6-a5 c2-c3 Qb4xc3) +1.32/11 0} 9. Qxf3
{(Qd1xf3 Nb8-c6 Bc1-e3 O-O Bc4-b3 e7-e6 Ra1-d1 Ra8-d8 Nc3-e4 Nf6xe4 Qf3xe4
e6-e5 d4xe5 Qa5xe5 Qe4xe5 Bg7xe5 Rd1xd8 Nc6xd8 c2-c3 a7-a5 Be3-h6 Rf8-e8
Rf1-e1 Be5-h2+ Kg1-f1 Nd8-e6 g2-g4 Bh2-g3 Re1-e2 Bg3-d6 a2-a4 Re8-e7 Re2-e1
Ne6-c5 Bb3-c2 Re7xe1+ Kf1xe1 Nc5-e6 Ke1-e2) -0.36/41 75} Nc6 {(Nb8-c6
Bc4-b5 Qa5-b6) +1.07/10 0} 10. Be3 {(Bc1-e3 O-O Bc4-b3 e7-e6 Ra1-d1 Ra8-d8
Kg1-h1 h7-h6 d4-d5 Nf6xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Rd1xd5 Rd8xd5 Qf3xd5 Qa5xd5 Bb3xd5
Nc6-e7 Bd5xb7 Rf8-b8 Bb7-e4 Rb8xb2 a2-a3 Rb2-a2 Be4-d3 Ne7-d5 Be3xa7 Ra2xa3
Bd3-c4 c7-c6 Ba7-g1 Ra3-a5 Rf1-e1 Kg8-f8 g2-g3 Bg7-c3 Re1-d1 Kf8-e7 Bc4-b3)
-0.37/41 99} Qb4 {(Qa5-b4 Bc4-b5 O-O Bb5xc6 b7xc6 Ra1-b1 Qb4-b7 Nc3-a4
Qb7-b5 Na4-c5 Nf6-d5 Be3-f2) +1.02/10 0} 11. Qe2 {(Qf3-e2 a7-a6 a2-a3
Qb4-d6 Ra1-d1 O-O Bc4-a2 b7-b5 b2-b4 Nc6-a7 Qe2-f3 Ra8-d8 d4-d5 Na7-c8
Ba2-b3 Qd6-e5 Be3-d4 Qe5-h5 g2-g4 Qh5-g5 Bd4-e3 Qg5-h4 Be3-f2 Qh4-g5)
0.00/47 80} Na5 {(Nc6-a5 Bc4-d3 a7-a6) +0.65/10 0} 12. Bd3 {(Bc4-d3 a7-a6
a2-a3 Qb4-d6 Ra1-d1 Na5-c6 Bd3-c4 O-O Bc4-a2 b7-b5 b2-b4 Nc6-a7 Qe2-f3
Ra8-d8 d4-d5 Na7-c8 Ba2-b3 Qd6-e5 Be3-d4 Qe5-g5 Bd4-e3) 0.00/49 91} a6
{(a7-a6 a2-a3 Qb4-d6) +0.96/10 0} 13. a3 {(a2-a3 Qb4-d6 Ra1-d1 Na5-c6
Bd3-c4 O-O Bc4-a2 b7-b5 b2-b4 Nc6-a7 Qe2-f3 Ra8-d8 d4-d5 Na7-c8 Ba2-b3
Qd6-e5 Be3-d4 Qe5-g5 Bd4-e3 Qg5-h4 Be3-f2 Qh4-h6 Bf2-e3) 0.00/47 89} Qd6
{(Qb4-d6 Ra1-d1 O-O Nc3-e4 Nf6xe4 Bd3xe4 e7-e5 b2-b4 Na5-c6 d4xe5 Qd6xe5
Be3-f4 Qe5-e7) +0.65/10 0} 14. Rad1 {(Ra1-d1 Na5-c6 Bd3-c4 O-O Bc4-a2 b7-b5
b2-b4 Nc6-a7 Qe2-f3 Ra8-d8 d4-d5 Na7-c8 Ba2-b3 Qd6-e5 Be3-d4 Qe5-g5 Bd4-e3)
0.00/48 80} O-O {(O-O Nc3-e4 Nf6xe4 Bd3xe4 e7-e5 b2-b4 Na5-c6 d4xe5 Qd6xe5
Be3-f4) +0.64/10 0} 15. b4 {(b2-b4 Na5-c6 d4-d5 Nc6-a7 Be3-c5 Qd6-d7 Qe2xe7
Rf8-e8 Qe7xd7 Nf6xd7 Nc3-e4 Na7-b5 Bc5-f2 Nb5xa3 d5-d6 Ra8-c8 Rf1-e1 Nd7-e5
Bd3-f1 f7-f5 Ne4-c5 c7xd6 Nc5xb7 Na3xc2 Nb7xd6 Nc2xe1 Nd6xe8 Ne1-d3 Ne8xg7
Nd3xf2 Ng7xf5 Nf2xd1 Nf5-e7+ Kg8-g7 Ne7xc8 Ne5-c6 Bf1xa6 Nc6xb4 Ba6-c4
Nd1-e3 Bc4-b5 Kg7-f6 Kg1-f2 Nb4-d5 Kf2-f3 Kf6-e5 Nc8-b6 Nd5xb6 Kf3xe3
Ke5-f5 Ke3-f3 Nb6-d5 h3-h4 Kf5-f6 Bb5-d3 Nd5-b4 Bd3-e2 Nb4-d5) 0.00/48 89}
Nc6 {(Na5-c6 Bd3-c4 e7-e6 d4-d5 Nf6xd5 Nc3xd5 e6xd5 Rd1xd5) +0.78/10 0} 16.
d5 {(d4-d5 Nc6-a7 Be3-c5 Qd6-d7 Qe2xe7 Rf8-e8 Qe7xd7 Nf6xd7 Nc3-e4 Na7-b5
Bc5-f2 Nb5xa3 d5-d6 Ra8-c8 Rf1-e1 Bg7-f8 Rd1-a1 Na3-b5 Bd3xb5 a6xb5 d6xc7
Rc8xc7 Ra1-d1 Re8-e6 Bf2-g3 Rc7xc2 Rd1xd7 Bf8xb4 Bg3-e5 Re6xe5 Ne4-f6+
Kg8-g7 Re1xe5 Kg7xf6 Re5xb5 Bb4-c5+ Kg1-h2 b7-b6 Rb5-b1 Kf6-e6 Rd7-b7
Rc2-f2 Kh2-g3 Rf2-f5 Rb1xb6+ Bc5xb6 Rb7xb6+ Ke6-d7 Rb6-a6 Rf5-h5 Ra6-a3
Rh5-f5 Ra3-a7+ Kd7-c6 Ra7-a1 Kc6-d6 Ra1-d1+ Kd6-c5 Rd1-b1 Kc5-c6 Rb1-a1)
0.00/46 80} Nxd5 {(Nf6xd5 Nc3xd5 Qd6xd5) -0.88/10 0} 17. Nxd5 {(Nc3xd5
Qd6xd5 Bd3xg6 Nc6-d4 Bg6xh7+ Kg8xh7 Be3xd4 Bg7xd4+ Kg1-h1 Qd5-e5 Qe2-d3+
Kh7-g8 Rf1-e1 Qe5-h8 Qd3xd4 Qh8xd4 Rd1xd4 e7-e6 Rd4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Re1-e5
Kh7-h6 Kh1-h2 Ra8-d8 Re5-e3 Rd8-d2 Re3-g3 Rd2-d5 c2-c4 Rd5-f5 c4-c5 Rf8-d8
Rg4-g8 Rf5-d5 Rg8-g7 Rd5-f5 Rg3-g4 Rf5-f1 Rg7-g8 Rd8xg8 Rg4xg8 b7-b6 c5xb6
c7xb6) +0.23/45 84} Qxd5 {(Qd6xd5 Bd3xg6 Qd5-e5) -0.58/12 0} 18. Bxg6
{(Bd3xg6 Nc6-d4 Bg6xh7+ Kg8xh7 Be3xd4 Bg7xd4+ Kg1-h1 Qd5-e5 Qe2-d3+ Kh7-g8
Rf1-e1 Qe5-h8 Qd3xd4 Qh8xd4 Rd1xd4 e7-e6 Rd4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Kh1-h2 Ra8-d8
Re1-e5 Kh7-h6 Re5-e3 Rd8-d5 Rg4-f4 e6-e5 Rf4-e4 c7-c5 b4xc5 Rd5xc5 Re4xe5
Rc5xc2 Re3-g3 Rc2-c6 Re5-e4 Rc6-g6 Rg3-f3 b7-b5 Re4-f4 Rg6-b6 Rf3-g3 Rb6-g6
Rg3-e3 Kh6-g7 Re3-f3 Rg6-c6 a3-a4 b5xa4 h3-h4 a4-a3 Rf4-f5 Rf8-c8 Rf5-a5
Rc6-g6 Ra5xa3 Rg6-f6 Rf3xf6) +0.12/47 95} Qe5 {(Qd5-e5 Bg6-d3 e7-e6 Qe2-f2
f7-f5 Bd3-c4 Qe5-f6 Be3-c5 Rf8-f7 Rf1-e1 Ra8-e8 Kg1-h1 f5-f4 Re1-e4)
-0.49/11 0} 19. Bd3 {(Bg6-d3 f7-f5 Qe2-f3 e7-e6 Kg1-h1 Qe5-f6 Rd1-e1 Nc6-e5
Qf3xb7 Qf6-f7 g2-g4 Ra8-b8 Qb7-g2 Ne5xd3 c2xd3 Qf7-d7 g4xf5 e6xf5 Be3-h6
Rf8-f6 Bh6xg7 Qd7xg7 Re1-e7 Qg7xg2+ Kh1xg2 Rf6-g6+ Kg2-f3 Rb8-d8 Kf3-e3
Rg6-g3+ Ke3-f4 Rd8xd3 Re7xc7 Rd3xa3) +0.36/36 84} e6 {(e7-e6 Qe2-f2 Qe5-c3
Qf2-f4 Qc3-e5 Qf4-f3 f7-f5 Be3-f2 Ra8-d8) -0.16/11 0} 20. Rfe1 {(Rf1-e1
a6-a5 b4-b5 Nc6-e7 Qe2-f3 c7-c6 b5xc6 b7xc6 Kg1-h1 Ne7-g6 Qf3xc6 Qe5-g3
Be3-g1 Ra8-c8 Qc6-b7 Bg7-e5 Re1-e3 Qg3-g5 Qb7-e4 Qg5-f4 Rd1-b1 Qf4xe4
Re3xe4 Rf8-d8 a3-a4 Rd8-d5 Rb1-f1) +0.45/34 76} f5 {(f7-f5 Be3-c5 Qe5xe2
Bd3xe2 Rf8-d8 Be2-c4 Bg7-d4+ Bc5xd4 Nc6xd4) -0.28/9 0} *[/pgn]
