Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

It also apply to engines that are over 90 Elo stronger , for instance Stockfisk rated around 3550 versus SEERS rated around 3460. I gave Stockfish the worse opening which is the 1.g4 or the Grob Opening, and Stockfish drew. I do NOT have Torch, but I believe that Torch can also at least draw versus Seers with 1.g4 :roll:
According to GM Ben Finegold ==>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPIMRMl0guA
But you can NOT open with an inferior move like 1.a, or or 1.g4 against an Opponent that is almost as strong as you are ==>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XeYWKljlvA OR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGqUVxs-78A
[pgn][Event "Worse Opening ] [Date "2023.12.05"] [Round "?"] [White "Stockfish-windows-x86-64-avx2x"] [Black "Seer_v2.7_x64_avx2_popcnt"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [BlackElo "3460"] [ECO "A00"] [Opening "Grob (Fric-Kilibr) Opening"] [Time "16:00:38"] [Variation "1...d5"] [WhiteElo "3550"] [TimeControl "0+3"] [Termination "normal"] [PlyCount "340"] [WhiteType "program"] [BlackType "program"] 1. g4 d5 2. e3 e5 3. d4 h5 4. gxh5 Nc6 5. dxe5 Nxe5 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. Nf3 Rxh5 8. Nxe5 Rxe5 9. Qd4 Bd6 10. Be2 Bf5 11. Bd2 Bxc2 12. Rc1 Bf5 13. Nb5 c6 14. Nxd6+ Qxd6 15. f3 Re6 16. a4 Kd7 17. b4 b6 18. a5 Rb8 19. axb6 axb6 20. Kf2 Rh8 21. h3 Qc7 22. Ra1 Rxh3 23. Rxh3 Bxh3 24. Rh1 Bf5 25. Qa1 Re8 26. Bc3 Ke6 27. Bd4 Rc8 28. Rh4 Qd8 29. Rh1 Ra8 30. Qc3 Kd7 31. Be5 Ra2 32. Ra1 Rxa1 33. Qxa1 Ne8 34. Bg3 Ke7 35. Qa7+ Kf8 36. Qb7 Bd7 37. b5 d4 38. exd4 cxb5 39. Qd5 Qe7 40. Qb7 Qe6 41. d5 Qf5 42. Bd3 Qxd3 43. Qxd7 Qd2+ 44. Kf1 Qe3 45. Kg2 Nf6 46. Qd8+ Qe8 47. Qxb6 Kg8 48. d6 Qe2+ 49. Bf2 Qc4 50. Qb7 Kh7 51. d7 Qd3 52. d8=R Qxd8 53. Qxb5 Nd5 54. Qb1+ g6 55. Qe4 Qg5+ 56. Kh2 Nf4 57. Bg3 Nh5 58. Bf2 Qf6 59. Kg1 Nf4 60. Bg3 Qa1+ 61. Be1 Ne6 62. Kf1 Kg7 63. Kf2 Qb2+ 64. Kf1 Kh7 65. Qh4+ Kg8 66. Qc4 Qb1 67. Kf2 Qb6+ 68. Kf1 Ng5 69. Qc8+ Kg7 70. Bc3+ f6 71. Qd7+ Nf7 72. Bd2 Kf8 73. Kg2 Qc5 74. Qd3 Qe7 75. Qxg6 Qe2+ 76. Kg3 Qxd2 77. Qxf6 Qd5 78. Qf4 Qc5 79. Kh4 Qc3 80. Kg4 Kg7 81. Kh3 Ne5 82. Qg5+ Ng6 83. Kg3 Qe1+ 84. Kg2 Qb4 85. Kf1 Qc4+ 86. Ke1 Qd3 87. Qd2 Qf5 88. Qd4+ Kf7 89. Qc4+ Kf8 90. Qe4 Qg5 91. Kd1 Nf4 92. Qa8+ Kg7 93. Qa7+ Kg6 94. Qd4 Nd5 95. Kc2 Kf7 96. Kb3 Ne7 97. Qd3 Qe5 98. f4 Qe6+ 99. Kc3 Qe1+ 100. Kb3 Ke8 101. Kc4 Qc1+ 102. Kb3 Qc5 103. Qe4 Kf8 104. Qa8+ Kf7 105. Qe4 Nd5 106. Qc4 Qa5 107. Kc2 Ke7 108. Kd3 Nf6 109. Ke2 Qf5 110. Kd2 Ne4+ 111. Ke3 Nc5 112. Ke2 Kf8 113. Kd2 Ne4+ 114. Ke1 Qa5+ 115. Ke2 Qd2+ 116. Kf3 Nf6 117. f5 Qd1+ 118. Ke3 Qg1+ 119. Kd2 Qf2+ 120. Kc3 Qxf5 121. Qd4 Nd7 122. Qd6+ Kf7 123. Kd4 Qf2+ 124. Kc3 Nc5 125. Kb4 Ne6 126. Kb3 Qe3+ 127. Kb4 Qe4+ 128. Kb5 Qb1+ 129. Ka5 Qb3 130. Qc7+ Kf6 131. Qd6 Qc4 132. Kb6 Kf5 133. Qc6 Qd4+ 134. Ka5 Qd2+ 135. Ka4 Qd1+ 136. Ka3 Nf4 137. Qc5+ Kg4 138. Qc4 Kg5 139. Kb4 Nd3+ 140. Kb5 Qb1+ 141. Ka6 Ne5 142. Qg8+ Kf4 143. Qf8+ Ke4 144. Qa8+ Ke3 145. Qa7+ Ke2 146. Qd4 Qf5 147. Qd5 Ke3 148. Ka7 Qf4 149. Qc5+ Kd2 150. Kb7 Qf7+ 151. Ka6 Qe6+ 152. Kb7 Qd7+ 153. Ka6 Nd3 154. Qb5 Qc8+ 155. Ka7 Qc7+ 156. Ka8 Qd8+ 157. Kb7 Qe7+ 158. Kc8 Qe4 159. Kc7 Nb4 160. Qg5+ Kd1 161. Qh5+ Ke1 162. Qa5 Qd4 163. Qb5 Nd5+ 164. Kc6 Ne3 165. Qc5 Qe4+ 166. Kb5 Kd1 167. Qc6 Qf4 168. Qe6 Kd2 169. Kc6 Kc2 170. Qa2+ Kd3 {50 moves rule} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

It also apply to engines that are over 90 Elo stronger , for instance Stockfisk rated around 3550 versus Carp rated around 3445. I gave Stockfish the worse opening which is the 1.g4 or the Grob Opening, and Stockfish drew. I do NOT have Torch, but I believe that Torch can also at least draw versus Carp with 1.g4 :roll:
According to GM Ben Finegold ==>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPIMRMl0guA
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"] [Date "2023.12.05"] [Round "?"] [White "Stockfish-windows-x86-64-avx2x"] [Black "Carp-v3.0.1-win-x86_64-V4"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [BlackElo "3445"] [ECO "A00"] [Opening "Grob (Fric-Kilibr) Opening"] [Time "22:01:01"] [Variation "1...d5"] [WhiteElo "3545"] [TimeControl "0+10"] [Termination "adjudication"] [PlyCount "230"] [WhiteType "program"] [BlackType "program"] 1. g4 d5 2. e3 h5 3. gxh5 Nf6 4. d4 Bf5 5. Ne2 Bg4 6. Bg2 Nc6 7. c4 dxc4 8. h3 Bxh5 9. Nd2 e5 10. Qa4 Nd7 11. Nxc4 Rb8 12. Bd2 b5 13. Qc2 Nxd4 14. exd4 bxc4 15. Qxc4 Bd6 16. O-O Rxb2 17. Qc3 Rb6 18. Ng3 Bg6 19. Rad1 O-O 20. dxe5 Bxe5 21. Qf3 Re8 22. Bc3 Qe7 23. Rfe1 Re6 24. Re2 Nf8 25. Rxe5 Rxe5 26. Bxe5 Qxe5 27. Qd5 Qf6 28. Qa5 Qb6 29. Qc3 Ne6 30. h4 Nf4 31. Qc4 Nxg2 32. Kxg2 Re5 33. Qg4 Qc6+ 34. Kg1 Qc2 35. h5 Bf5 36. Rd8+ Kh7 37. Qf3 c6 38. Qf4 Qc5 39. Kh2 Qe7 40. Nxf5 Qf6 41. Rd6 Qxf5 42. Qxf5+ Rxf5 43. Kg3 c5 44. Ra6 c4 45. Rxa7 Rg5+ 46. Kf3 Rc5 47. Ke2 c3 48. Kd1 c2+ 49. Kc1 Rf5 50. Kxc2 Kh6 51. Kd3 Rxf2 52. Ra5 Rf1 53. Ke2 Rf4 54. Ke3 Rc4 55. a4 Rc3+ 56. Kf2 f6 57. Rd5 Ra3 58. a5 g5 59. hxg6 Kxg6 60. Rc5 f5 61. Rc6+ Kg5 62. Rc4 Rxa5 63. Rd4 Ra3 64. Rc4 Rh3 65. Ra4 Rc3 66. Kg2 Kg6 67. Ra7 Kh5 68. Ra4 Kg5 69. Kf2 Rd3 70. Ke2 Rb3 71. Kf2 Kf6 72. Rc4 Ke5 73. Rc2 Rd3 74. Rc1 Ke4 75. Rc2 Rf3+ 76. Kg2 Ra3 77. Rc4+ Ke3 78. Kg3 Ra2 79. Rc3+ Ke4 80. Rc4+ Ke5 81. Rc3 Ra4 82. Kf3 Kd6 83. Re3 Rd4 84. Re1 Kd5 85. Kf2 Rd3 86. Re2 Kd4 87. Rb2 Ke5 88. Kg2 Kf4 89. Rb4+ Kg5 90. Kf2 Kf6 91. Ke2 Rc3 92. Rb2 Kg5 93. Rb4 Ra3 94. Kf2 Rd3 95. Ra4 Kf6 96. Ra8 Ke5 97. Ke2 Rd4 98. Ke3 Rd6 99. Rb8 Re6 100. Rb5+ Kd6+ 101. Kf4 Re8 102. Rb1 Kc5 103. Kxf5 Kc6 104. Ra1 Rf8+ 105. Ke6 Kb6 106. Ke7 Rf3 107. Rb1+ Kc7 108. Rc1+ Kb7 109. Rb1+ Ka6 110. Ra1+ Kb5 111. Rb1+ Kc4 112. Ra1 Rb3 113. Ke6 Rc3 114. Re1 Rd3 115. Rc1+ Kb5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

My conclusion is that Chess Opening do NOT matter that much as long as the player playing the risky Opening with White is better than his opponent by at least 40 Elo as in the case when GM Magnus Carlsen played 1.a4.., and it does NOT matter if it is between human Vs human or engine versus engine
According to GM Ben Finegold ==>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPIMRMl0guA
Here Carlsen played 1.a4 to demonstrate that Opening does NOT matter much, is what you do during the Middlegame that really matter, Well probably he took him off his preparation as well by surprise==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glox1Ph9jqQ
But you can NOT open with an inferior move like 1.a, or or 1.g4 against an Opponent that is almost as strong as you are ==>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XeYWKljlvA OR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGqUVxs-78A
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"] [Date "2023.12.06"] [Round "?"] [White "Stockfish-windows-x86-64-avx2x"] [Black "Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1019-Elo.opt-avx2"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [BlackElo "3490"] [ECO "A00"] [Opening "Ware (Meadow Hay) Opening"] [Time "03:26:05"] [WhiteElo "3550"] [TimeControl "0+10"] [Termination "normal"] [PlyCount "43"] [WhiteType "program"] [BlackType "program"] 1. a4 Nf6 {(Ng8-f6 Ng1-f3) +0.39/26 5} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 e7-e6 Ng1-f3 c7-c5 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-e2 d7-d5 b2-b3 Bf8-d6 Bc1-b2 c5xd4 e3xd4 O-O O-O Nf6-e4 Nb1-d2 Qd8-c7 c2-c4 Rf8-d8 Be2-d3 f7-f5 Nd2-b1 Qc7-a5 Bb2-a3 Bd6-b4 Ba3-b2 Bb4-e7 Nb1-a3 Bc8-d7 Na3-c2 Ra8-c8) -0.15/32 9} e6 {(e7-e6 Ng1-f3 c7-c5 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-e2 b7-b6 O-O Bc8-b7 c2-c4 Nc6-b4 Nb1-c3 Bf8-e7 b2-b3 O-O Bc1-b2 Ra8-c8 h2-h3 Nf6-e4 Nc3xe4 Bb7xe4 Qd1-d2 d7-d5 Ra1-c1 Qd8-d6 d4xc5 b6xc5 c4xd5 e6xd5) +0.33/24 10} 3. Nf3 {(Ng1-f3 c7-c5 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-e2 d7-d5 b2-b3 Bf8-d6 Bc1-b2 O-O O-O c5xd4 e3xd4 Nf6-e4 Nb1-d2 Qd8-c7 c2-c4 Rf8-d8 Be2-d3 f7-f5 Nd2-b1 Qc7-f7 Nb1-c3 Nc6-b4 Bd3-e2 a7-a6 Nf3-e5 Bd6xe5 d4xe5 Bc8-d7 Nc3xe4 d5xe4 Qd1-d6) -0.10/33 10} c5 {(c7-c5 c2-c3 c5xd4) +0.31/26 10} 4. e3 {(e2-e3) -0.11/33 9} Nc6 {(Nb8-c6 Bf1-e2 b7-b6) +0.28/28 10} 5. Be2 {(Bf1-e2 d7-d5 b2-b3 Bf8-d6 O-O c5xd4 e3xd4 O-O Bc1-b2 Qd8-c7 Bb2-a3 b7-b6 Be2-d3 Bc8-b7 c2-c3 Nf6-e4 Ba3xd6 Qc7xd6 Rf1-e1 Qd6-f4 Nb1-d2 Ne4xc3 Qd1-c1 Nc3-e4 Nd2xe4 Qf4xc1 Re1xc1 d5xe4 Bd3xe4 Ra8-c8 Rc1-c4 Nc6-a5 Be4xb7 Na5xb7 Ra1-c1 Nb7-d6 Rc4xc8 Rf8xc8 Rc1xc8+ Nd6xc8) -0.21/33 10} Be7 {(Bf8-e7 c2-c4 d7-d5 c4xd5 e6xd5 O-O O-O Nb1-c3 Bc8-e6 d4xc5 a7-a6 Nf3-d4 Be7xc5 Be2-d3 Bc5xd4 e3xd4 Qd8-b6 Nc3-e2 Be6-g4 f2-f3 Bg4-d7 Rf1-f2 Rf8-e8 Bc1-g5 Nc6-a5 Ne2-c3 Ra8-c8 Bg5xf6 Qb6xf6 Nc3xd5 Qf6-d6 Nd5-c3) +0.38/24 10} 6. c4 {(c2-c4) -0.12/35 9} d5 {(d7-d5 d4xc5) +0.30/24 10} 7. cxd5 {(c4xd5 e6xd5 O-O O-O Bc1-d2 Bc8-e6 d4xc5 Be7xc5 Bd2-c3 Ra8-c8 Nf3-d4 a7-a6 Nb1-a3 Bc5xd4 Bc3xd4 Be6-f5 Ra1-c1 Rf8-e8 Bd4xf6 Qd8xf6 Qd1xd5 Bf5-e6 Qd5-f3 Qf6xb2 Na3-c4 Be6xc4 Be2xc4 Nc6-e5 Qf3-f4 Ne5xc4 Rc1xc4 Rc8xc4 Qf4xc4 h7-h5 Qc4-c7 b7-b5 a4xb5 a6xb5) -0.15/33 10} exd5 {(e6xd5 O-O O-O Bc1-d2 Bc8-e6 d4xc5 Be7xc5 Bd2-c3 Nf6-e4 Nb1-d2 Ne4xc3 b2xc3 Ra8-c8 Nd2-b3 Bc5-d6 Ra1-c1 Be6-f5 Be2-d3 Bf5-e4 Bd3xe4 d5xe4 Nf3-d4 g7-g6 g2-g3 h7-h5 Nd4xc6 Rc8xc6 Nb3-d4 Rc6-c5 Nd4-b3 Rc5-g5 Rc1-b1 Qd8-e7) +0.17/24 10} 8. O-O {(O-O O-O Bc1-d2 Bc8-e6 d4xc5 Be7xc5 Bd2-c3 Ra8-c8 Nf3-d4 a7-a6 Nb1-a3 Bc5xd4 Bc3xd4 Be6-f5 Ra1-c1 Rf8-e8 Bd4xf6 Qd8xf6 Qd1xd5 Bf5-e4 Qd5-c5 Qf6xb2 Be2-g4 Rc8-d8 Na3-c4 Qb2-f6 Rf1-d1 Rd8xd1+ Bg4xd1 Re8-d8 Bd1-e2 Rd8-d5 Qc5-a3 Rd5-g5 g2-g3 Rg5-d5 Qa3-a1 Qf6-e7 Qa1-b2 Rd5-c5) -0.13/33 10} O-O {(O-O) +0.35/25 10} 9. Bd2 {(Bc1-d2 Bc8-e6 Bd2-c3 b7-b6 Nb1-d2 Ra8-c8 Nf3-e5 Nc6xe5 d4xe5 Nf6-e8 Nd2-f3 Be6-f5 Be2-a6 Rc8-b8 Ba6-d3 Bf5xd3 Qd1xd3 Qd8-d7 Nf3-d2 Rb8-d8 b2-b3 d5-d4 e3xd4 c5xd4) -0.11/31 10} Ne4 {(Nf6-e4 d4xc5 Be7xc5 Nb1-c3 Ne4xd2 Qd1xd2 d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xe2+ Qd2xe2 Qd8-e7 Qe2xe7 Bc5xe7 h2-h3 g7-g6 Nc3-d5 Be7-d8 Ra1-c1 Ra8-b8 Nf3-d4 Bc8-d7 b2-b3 a7-a6 Rd1-d3 Rb8-c8 Rc1-d1 Kg8-g7 g2-g4 Rf8-e8 Nd5-e3 Bd8-f6 Ne3-c4) +0.27/24 10} 10. dxc5 {(d4xc5 Be7xc5 Nb1-c3 Bc8-e6 Bd2-e1 Ra8-c8 Ra1-c1 Bc5-e7 Nf3-d4 Nc6xd4 Qd1xd4 Ne4-c5 Rc1-d1 Nc5-b3 Qd4-f4 g7-g6 Nc3xd5 Be6xd5 e3-e4 Be7-d6 Qf4-f3 Bd5-c6 Qf3xb3 Bc6xe4 Be1-c3 Qd8-c7 h2-h3 Bd6-c5 Be2-d3 Rf8-e8 Bd3xe4 Re8xe4) -0.02/32 10} Bxc5 {(Be7xc5 Nb1-c3 Ne4xd2 Qd1xd2 d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-c8 h2-h3 Bc5-f8 g2-g4 h7-h6 Kg1-g2 Rc8-c5 b2-b4 Rc5-b5 a5-a6 b7xa6 Ra1xa6 Bf8xb4 Nd5xb4 Rb5xb4 Ra6xa7 g7-g6 Ra7-a8 Kg8-h7 Ra8xb8 Rb4xb8 Rd2-d1 Be6-b3) +0.12/25 10} 11. Nc3 {(Nb1-c3 Ne4xd2 Qd1xd2 d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 Nc3-d5 a7-a5 h2-h3 Bc8-e6 Nd5-c7 Rb8-d8 Nc7xe6 f7xe6 Rd2-c2 b7-b6 Bf3-g4 Rf8-f4 Bg4xe6+ Kg8-f8) -0.04/33 9} Nxd2 {(Ne4xd2 Qd1xd2 d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 g2-g3 Bc5-b4 Rd2-d4 Bb4xc3 b2xc3 Rf8-c8 a5-a6 b7xa6 Bf3-d5 Be6xd5 Rd4xd5 Rc8xc3 Rd5-d7 Rc3-f3 Rd7xa7 h7-h6 Kg1-g2 Rf3-f6) +0.10/25 10} 12. Qxd2 {(Qd1xd2 d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-c8 g2-g3 Kg8-f8 h2-h4 b7-b5 Kg1-g2 Bc5-e7 Ra1-d1 b5-b4 Nd5xe7 Kf8xe7 Bf3-d5 Rc8-d8 Bd5xe6 Rd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ke7xe6 Kg2-f3 Rb8-b5 Rd2-d4 b4-b3 Rd4-a4 Rb5-c5 Ra4-b4 Rc5xa5 Rb4-b7) -0.01/38 10} d4 {(d5-d4 e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-c7 Rd8xd2 Nc7xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1xd2 b7-b6 a5-a6 Kf8-e7 g2-g3 Rb8-d8 Rd2-e2 Ke7-f6 Bf3-b7 Rd8-d4 Kg1-f1 e6-e5 Bb7-e4 h7-h6 b2-b3 Bc5-e7) +0.17/29 10} 13. exd4 {(e3xd4 Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f4 Rd8xd2 Nf4xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1xd2 Kf8-e7 Rd2-c2 Bc5-b4 Rc2-c7+ Ke7-f6 Rc7xb7 Rb8xb7 Bf3xb7 Bb4xa5 Bb7-a6 Ba5-b6 g2-g3 Bb6-d4 b2-b3 Kf6-e5 Ba6-d3 h7-h6 Kg1-g2 Bd4-a1 Bd3-c4 Ke5-f5 f2-f4 Ba1-d4 Bc4-d3+ Kf5-f6) 0.00/42 9} Nxd4 {(Nc6xd4 Rf1-d1 Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f4 Kf8-e7 Rd2xd8 Rb8xd8 Rd1xd8 Ke7xd8 Nf4xe6+ f7xe6 Bf3xb7 Kd8-d7 a5-a6 h7-h6 b2-b3 Bc5-b4 Kg1-f1 Kd7-e7 g2-g3 Ke7-d7 Kf1-e2 Bb4-c5 Ke2-f1) 0.00/31 10} 14. Rfd1 {(Rf1-d1 Nd4xe2+ Qd2xe2 Qd8-e7 Qe2-c2 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Be6xd5 Rd1xd5 Ra8-c8 g2-g3 Rf8-d8 Rd5xd8+ Qe7xd8 Ra1-d1 Qd8-e8 Rd1-d5 Bc5-f8 Qc2-d1 g7-g6 h2-h4 Qe8-c6 Rd5-d7 Rc8-c7 Rd7xc7 Qc6xc7 Qd1-d5 Bf8-g7 b2-b3 Qc7-c1+ Kg1-h2 Qc1-c6 Qd5-d8+ Bg7-f8 Nf3-e5 Qc6-c5 Ne5-g4 h7-h5 Ng4-f6+ Kg8-g7 Nf6-e8+ Kg7-g8) 0.00/43 10} Nxf3+ {(Nd4xf3+ Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 g7-g6 Nd5-f4 Be6-c8 Nf4-d5) 0.00/33 10} 15. Bxf3 {(Be2xf3 Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f4 Rd8xd2 Nf4xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1xd2 Kf8-e7 b2-b3 Bc5-b4 Rd2-a2 Rb8-c8 g2-g3 Rc8-c5 Bf3xb7 Rc5xa5 Ra2-e2 Ke7-d6 Bb7-e4 h7-h6 Be4-d3 Ra5-e5 Re2xe5 Kd6xe5 Bd3-c4 Bb4-e7 Kg1-g2 Be7-c5) 0.00/43 10} Qxd2 {(Qd8xd2 Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 g7-g6 Nd5-f4 Be6-c8 Nf4-d5) 0.00/33 10} 16. Rxd2 {(Rd1xd2 Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f4 Rd8xd2 Nf4xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1xd2 Bc5-b4 Rd2-d7 Rb8-c8 g2-g3 Bb4xa5 Rd7xb7 Rc8-c7 Rb7xc7 Ba5xc7 Bf3-e2 Kf8-e7 f2-f3 Bc7-b6+ Kg1-f1 e6-e5 Be2-c4 e5-e4 f3xe4 Ke7-f6 Bc4-g8 g7-g6 Kf1-g2 h7-h5 b2-b3 Bb6-d4 Bg8-d5 Bd4-c5 Bd5-b7 g6-g5 Bb7-a6 g5-g4 e4-e5+ Kf6xe5) 0.00/47 9} Rb8 {(Ra8-b8 a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 g7-g6 Nd5-f4 Be6-c8 Nf4-d5) 0.00/33 10} 17. a5 {(a4-a5 Bc8-e6 Nc3-d5 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f4 Rd8xd2 Nf4xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1xd2 Bc5-b4 Rd2-d7 Rb8-c8 g2-g3 Bb4xa5 Rd7xb7 Rc8-c7 Rb7xc7 Ba5xc7 Bf3-e2 Kf8-e7 f2-f3 Bc7-b6+ Kg1-f1 e6-e5 Be2-c4 e5-e4 f3xe4 Ke7-f6 Bc4-g8 g7-g6 Kf1-g2 Bb6-d4 b2-b3 h7-h5 Kg2-f3 Bd4-c5 Bg8-c4 g6-g5 Bc4-g8 g5-g4+ Kf3-f4 Bc5-d6+ e4-e5+ Bd6xe5+ Kf4-e4) 0.00/46 9} g6 {(g7-g6 Nc3-d5 Bc8-e6 Nd5-f4 Be6-c8) 0.00/32 10} 18. Nd5 {(Nc3-d5 Kg8-g7 b2-b4 Bc5-d6 b4-b5 Bc8-e6 b5-b6 a7xb6 Nd5xb6 Bd6-e5 Ra1-d1 Be5-c3 Nb6-d7 Rf8-d8 Rd2-c2 Rb8-c8 Rd1-c1 Rd8xd7 Rc2xc3 Rc8xc3 Rc1xc3 Rd7-d6 Rc3-c5 b7-b6 a5xb6 Rd6xb6 h2-h4 Rb6-b1+ Kg1-h2 Rb1-b4 g2-g3 Rb4-b2 Kh2-g1 Kg7-f6 Kg1-g2 Rb2-b4 Bf3-c6 Rb4-b1 h4-h5 Be6-f5) 0.00/41 9} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Nd5-f4 Be6-c8) 0.00/33 10} 19. Nf4 {(Nd5-f4 Be6-c8 Nf4-d5 Kg8-g7 b2-b4 Bc5-d6 b4-b5 Bc8-e6 b5-b6 a7xb6 Nd5xb6 Bd6-e5 Ra1-d1 Be5-c3 Nb6-d7 Bc3xd2 Nd7xf8 Bd2xa5 Nf8xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1-d7+ Kg7-f6 Bf3xb7 Rb8-d8 Rd7xd8 Ba5xd8 g2-g3 Kf6-g5 Kg1-g2 Bd8-e7 Bb7-e4 Be7-b4 Be4-c6 Kg5-f5 f2-f3 Kf5-g5 Bc6-b7 Bb4-c3 Bb7-e4 e6-e5 g3-g4 Bc3-b4 h2-h3 Kg5-f4 h3-h4 Bb4-e7 Kg2-h3 Be7-c5 h4-h5) 0.00/46 10} Bc8 {(Be6-c8) 0.00/34 10} 20. Nd5 {(Nf4-d5 Kg8-g7 b2-b4 Bc5-d6 b4-b5 Bc8-e6 b5-b6 a7xb6 Nd5xb6 Bd6-e5 Ra1-d1 Be5-c3 Nb6-d7 Bc3xd2 Nd7xf8 Bd2xa5 Nf8xe6+ f7xe6 Rd1-d7+ Kg7-f6 Bf3xb7 Rb8-d8 Rd7xd8 Ba5xd8 g2-g3 Kf6-g5 Bb7-e4 Bd8-e7 Kg1-g2 Be7-b4 Be4-c2 Kg5-f6 Bc2-b1 Kf6-e5 Kg2-f3 Bb4-e7 Kf3-g4 Ke5-f6 Bb1-e4 Be7-c5 Be4-b7 e6-e5 Bb7-e4 Kf6-g7 Kg4-h3 Bc5-e7 g3-g4 Be7-g5 Kh3-g3 Bg5-f4+ Kg3-f3) 0.00/49 10} Be6 {(Bc8-e6) 0.00/4} 21. Nf4 {(Nd5-f4 Be6-f5 g2-g4 Bf5-c8 Nf4-d5 Bc8-e6 Kg1-g2 Rf8-c8 h2-h4 Kg8-f8 Nd5-f6 h7-h6 Nf6-d7+ Be6xd7 Rd2xd7 Rc8-d8 Ra1-d1 Rd8xd7 Rd1xd7 Kf8-e8 Rd7-d5 b7-b6 h4-h5 Ke8-e7 h5xg6 f7xg6 Bf3-e4 Rb8-d8 Rd5xd8 Ke7xd8 a5xb6 Bc5xb6 Be4xg6 Kd8-e7 Kg2-g3) 0.00/41 10} Bc8 {(Be6-c8) 0.00/4 0} 22. Nd5 {(Nf4-d5) 0.00/64 10 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
Chessqueen
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Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

Stockfish beat Velvet the same way that Carlsen beat lower rated GM with an inferior Opening. Most games are NOT won in the Opening, but during the Middlegame :roll:
Here Carlsen played 1.a4 to demonstrate that Opening does NOT matter much, is what you do during the Middlegame that really matter, Well probably he took him off his preparation as well by surprise==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glox1Ph9jqQ
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"] [Site "DESKTOP-4QNC0GS"] [Date "2023.12.06"] [Round "?"] [White "Stockfish-windows-x86-64-avx2y"] [Black "Velvet-v5.3.0-x86_64-avx2 (1)"] [Result "1-0"] [BlackElo "3400"] [ECO "A00"] [Opening "Ware (Meadow Hay) Opening"] [Time "09:51:43"] [WhiteElo "3555"] [TimeControl "0+3"] [Termination "normal"] [PlyCount "202"] [WhiteType "program"] [BlackType "program"] 1. a4 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nf3 c5 4. dxc5 Nc6 5. c3 a5 6. Bf4 e6 7. e3 Bxc5 8. Bb5 Qe7 9. Nbd2 O-O 10. Ne5 Na7 11. Bd3 Bd6 12. O-O Rd8 13. h3 Nc6 14. Ndf3 h6 15. Qc2 Nxe5 16. Bxe5 b6 17. Rfd1 Bb7 18. Qe2 Ne4 19. Bxd6 Nxd6 20. Ne5 Rdc8 21. Qg4 Rc5 22. Qe2 Re8 23. f4 Qc7 24. Bb1 Ra8 25. Rd4 f6 26. Nf3 Re8 27. Qc2 g5 28. Qf2 Qe7 29. Qg3 Kf7 30. Bc2 Ne4 31. Qe1 Kg7 32. Qe2 e5 33. fxe5 fxe5 34. Rdd1 Ng3 35. Qe1 Nh5 36. Rd2 Nf6 37. Qg3 Nh5 38. Qe1 Nf6 39. Rf2 Ba6 40. Nh2 e4 41. Bd1 Bd3 42. Be2 Rc6 43. Qd1 Kg6 44. Nf1 Bxe2 45. Qxe2 Qe5 46. Nd2 Nh5 47. Qb5 Rec8 48. Nb3 Ng3 49. Nd4 Rf6 50. Rxf6+ Qxf6 51. Ne2 Nxe2+ 52. Qxe2 Qc6 53. Rf1 Kg7 54. Qf2 Qe6 55. Qg3 Kh7 56. h4 Kg6 57. Qh2 Re8 58. Rf2 Qe5 59. Qh3 gxh4 60. Qxh4 Qe6 61. Rf4 Rc8 62. Qg3+ Kh7 63. Qh2 Kg6 64. Rh4 Kh7 65. Rh5 Rg8 66. Re5 Qg4 67. Re7+ Rg7 68. Rxg7+ Kxg7 69. Qe5+ Kg6 70. Qxd5 Qe2 71. Qxe4+ Kg5 72. Qd5+ Kg6 73. Qe4+ Kg5 74. Qd5+ Kg6 75. Qe6+ Kg5 76. b3 Qe1+ 77. Kh2 Qxc3 78. Qxb6 h5 79. Qe6 Qc7+ 80. Kh3 Qc3 81. Qe7+ Kh6 82. Qd6+ Kh7 83. Qe6 Qe1 84. Qf7+ Kh6 85. Qf6+ Kh7 86. Qf7+ Kh6 87. Qf4+ Kh7 88. Qg5 Qe2 89. Kh2 Qe1 90. Qxh5+ Kg7 91. Qf3 Qh4+ 92. Qh3 Qe7 93. Qg4+ Kf7 94. Kg3 Qa7 95. e4 Qg1 96. Kh4 Qa1 97. Qd7+ Kg6 98. Qe6+ Kh7 99. Kh5 Qg1 100. Qe7+ Kh8 101. Qf6+ Kh7 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]
BrendanJNorman
Posts: 2584
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:43 am
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by BrendanJNorman »

This is really not so controversial.

Any decent coach can point this out.

The lower you go on the rating scale, the more likely a game is decided by one guy blundering, and the other seeing the punishing tactic.

The higher you go on the rating scale, the fewer people blunder, the more tactical pitfalls they see (and avoid) and the more important getting a slight edge in the opening is.

This is basic stuff. It's why coaches tell kids to ignore openings until they've done say 2000 or so tactical puzzles.

Before that we give the basic 3 goals guideline:

1. Develop pieces
2. Evacuate king
3. Fight for the center (and any move which ignores these rules should be rejected in the early stage)

Nothing more is needed until you have your tactics straight.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10895
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Uri Blass »

BrendanJNorman wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:04 am This is really not so controversial.

Any decent coach can point this out.

The lower you go on the rating scale, the more likely a game is decided by one guy blundering, and the other seeing the punishing tactic.

The higher you go on the rating scale, the fewer people blunder, the more tactical pitfalls they see (and avoid) and the more important getting a slight edge in the opening is.

This is basic stuff. It's why coaches tell kids to ignore openings until they've done say 2000 or so tactical puzzles.

Before that we give the basic 3 goals guideline:

1. Develop pieces
2. Evacuate king
3. Fight for the center (and any move which ignores these rules should be rejected in the early stage)

Nothing more is needed until you have your tactics straight.
I disagree that nothing more is needed because there are some traps that it is good to know to beat your opponent even when you are a weak chess player and I am not talking about getting a slight edge but about getting a winning position out of the opening.

I saw games between weak players when white won after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Nxe4 4.Qe2 Nf6 5.Nc6+ simply because white memorized the trap and the moves and black did not.
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

BrendanJNorman wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:04 am This is really not so controversial.

Any decent coach can point this out.

The lower you go on the rating scale, the more likely a game is decided by one guy blundering, and the other seeing the punishing tactic.

The higher you go on the rating scale, the fewer people blunder, the more tactical pitfalls they see (and avoid) and the more important getting a slight edge in the opening is.

This is basic stuff. It's why coaches tell kids to ignore openings until they've done say 2000 or so tactical puzzles.

Before that we give the basic 3 goals guideline:

1. Develop pieces
2. Evacuate king
3. Fight for the center (and any move which ignores these rules should be rejected in the early stage)

Nothing more is needed until you have your tactics straight.
These are very good advice, but the main problem of beginners is that they constantly ignore the opponent moves and threats and simply make their own moves without caring for the opponent best reply and hang pieces or allow checkmate in 1 or 2 moves. That is what most coaches needs to always remind their students to always try to play both sides of the board before they select their moves.

NOTE: I believe that beginners learn chess faster when their coaches sit down with them and replay those games that they lost, by asking them as they replay each moves explain to me what were you thinking before you made this move and why you select this move. You will be surprised to find out that 99% of the times they hung a piece or made a blunder, simply because they were only thinking of their moves and did NOT considered the opponent best reply, in other words they were only playing their side of the board and NOT asking themselves if I make this move what is his best reply to my choice of move. :roll:
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
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Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

I just played a game as a guess in ChessTempo.com, and wanted to test GM Ben Finegold theory or belief that Chess Opening is NOT that important for lower rated player, and even if I chose the worse Opening reply for Black by moving my Knight to the edge, my opponent later ignored some moves that I played and Blunder a Knight by moving it to a square guarded by my Bishop and then totally ignored that I was going to trap his other Bishop with a simple pawn push, just to prove that the main reason for most weak players to hung pieces or Blunder is that they simply only consider their next move without even paying any attention of what I was going to do to him. Jus like GM Ben Finegold stated that learning chess opening does NOT really matter when the most serious problem of weak players is that they never ever consider their opponent best reply when they are just playing their side of the board. :roll:

[pgn][Event "Chesstempo game"] [Site "Chesstempo.com"] [Date "2023.12.8"] [Round "?"] [TimeControl "600"] [White "Rodolforosario"] [Black "guest_7656"] [WhiteElo "1419.46"] [BlackElo "1500"] [Result "0-1"] 1.e4 {[%emt 0]} {[%clk 00:10:00]} 1...Na6 {[%emt 0]} {[%clk 00:10:00]} 2.d4 {[%emt 2.62]} {[%clk 00:09:57]} 2...d5 {[%emt 29.34]} {[%clk 00:09:30]} 3.Bxa6 {[%emt 4.49]} {[%clk 00:09:52]} 3...bxa6 {[%emt 21.11]} {[%clk 00:09:09]} 4.exd5 {[%emt 1.66]} {[%clk 00:09:51]} 4...Qxd5 {[%emt 11.4]} {[%clk 00:08:58]} 5.Nc3 {[%emt 1.47]} {[%clk 00:09:49]} 5...Qxg2 {[%emt 9.5]} {[%clk 00:08:48]} 6.Qf3 {[%emt 10.76]} {[%clk 00:09:39]} 6...Bb7 {[%emt 24.95]} {[%clk 00:08:23]} 7.d5 {[%emt 2.8]} {[%clk 00:09:36]} 7...Qxf3 {[%emt 23.21]} {[%clk 00:08:00]} 8.Nxf3 {[%emt 1.61]} {[%clk 00:09:34]} 8...Nf6 {[%emt 0]} {[%clk 00:08:00]} 9.Ne5 {[%emt 23.62]} {[%clk 00:09:10]} 9...Nxd5 {[%emt 11.6]} {[%clk 00:07:48]} 10.Nxd5 {[%emt 2.14]} {[%clk 00:09:08]} 10...Bxd5 {[%emt 2.85]} {[%clk 00:07:46]} 11.Rg1 {[%emt 3.27]} {[%clk 00:09:05]} 11...f6 {[%emt 17.17]} {[%clk 00:07:28]} 12.Nd3 {[%emt 6.81]} {[%clk 00:08:58]} 12...e5 {[%emt 33.4]} {[%clk 00:06:55]} 13.Nb4 {[%emt 2.61]} {[%clk 00:08:56]} 13...Bxb4+ {[%emt 13.14]} {[%clk 00:06:42]} 14.c3 {[%emt 1.66]} {[%clk 00:08:54]} 14...Bf8 {[%emt 17.95]} {[%clk 00:06:24]} 15.Rf1 {[%emt 1.52]} {[%clk 00:08:52]} 15...Bf3 {[%emt 16.26]} {[%clk 00:06:08]} 16.Be3 {[%emt 2.75]} {[%clk 00:08:50]} 16...Kf7 {[%emt 22.4]} {[%clk 00:05:45]} 17.Kd2 {[%emt 7.74]} {[%clk 00:08:42]} 17...f5 {[%emt 15.58]} {[%clk 00:05:30]} 18.Rae1 {[%emt 7.74]} {[%clk 00:08:34]} 18...f4 {[%emt 12.48]} {[%clk 00:05:17]} 19.Bxf4 exf4 {[%emt 21.68]} {[%clk 00:04:55]} 0-1[/pgn]
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

Here is another game that I played as White, where my Opponent did NOT even considered my best next move to attack his Queen and Bishop, so he only considered to play Bishop to g7? on his last move. :roll:
NOTE: This is very common for us Weak chess players NOT to consider our opponent best reply when we are just considering to make a move, but the latest advice for me stop blundering from a GM was to always check my opponent best reply before I even consider making a move.
[pgn][Event "Chesstempo game"] [Site "Chesstempo.com"] [Date "2023.12.8"] [Round "?"] [TimeControl "600"] [White "guest_7656"] [Black "guest_6906"] [WhiteElo "1500"] [BlackElo "1500"] [Result "1-0"] 1.a4 {[%emt 0]} {[%clk 00:10:00]} 1...g6 {[%emt 0]} {[%clk 00:10:00]} 2.d4 {[%emt 13.2]} {[%clk 00:09:46]} 2...Nf6 {[%emt 9.26]} {[%clk 00:09:50]} 3.Nf3 {[%emt 9.53]} {[%clk 00:09:37]} 3...b6 {[%emt 1.94]} {[%clk 00:09:48]} 4.Nc3 {[%emt 9.75]} {[%clk 00:09:27]} 4...Bb7 {[%emt 2.14]} {[%clk 00:09:46]} 5.e4 {[%emt 19.81]} {[%clk 00:09:07]} 5...d6 {[%emt 1.83]} {[%clk 00:09:44]} 6.Bb5+ {[%emt 11.62]} {[%clk 00:08:56]} 6...Nbd7 {[%emt 4.3]} {[%clk 00:09:40]} 7.e5 {[%emt 14.22]} {[%clk 00:08:41]} 7...dxe5 {[%emt 6.71]} {[%clk 00:09:33]} 8.dxe5 {[%emt 1.57]} {[%clk 00:08:40]} 8...c6 {[%emt 11.18]} {[%clk 00:09:22]} 9.Bc4 {[%emt 17.42]} {[%clk 00:08:22]} 9...Ng4 {[%emt 34.21]} {[%clk 00:08:48]} 10.Bxf7+ {[%emt 25.21]} {[%clk 00:07:57]} 10...Kxf7 {[%emt 2.89]} {[%clk 00:08:45]} 11.Ng5+ {[%emt 7.9]} {[%clk 00:07:49]} 11...Ke8 {[%emt 4.9]} {[%clk 00:08:40]} 12.Qxg4 {[%emt 14.61]} {[%clk 00:07:35]} 12...Nxe5 {[%emt 2.11]} {[%clk 00:08:38]} 13.Qg3 {[%emt 12.28]} {[%clk 00:07:22]} 13...Bg7 {[%emt 8.39]} {[%clk 00:08:30]} 14.Ne6 1-0[/pgn]
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Opening does NOT Matter when <1600 Elo

Post by Chessqueen »

Last Example of Weak players NOT considering what his Opponent is doing and simply moving his pieces :roll: :mrgreen: :roll:
NOTE: The last 2 games I played as a guess with the White Pieces
[pgn][Event "Live Chess"] [Site "Chess.com"] [Date "2023.12.08"] [Round "?"] [White "Guest8038361361"] [Black "Guest6661058776"] [Result "1-0"] [TimeControl "600"] [Termination "Guest8038361361 won by checkmate"] 1. h4 e6 2. Nc3 Be7 3. Nf3 e5 4. Nxe5 Bxh4 5. e4 d6 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qh5+ g6 8. Qxh4 Qxh4 9. Rxh4 Nf6 10. d4 Nc6 11. Bc4+ Kg7 12. Bh6# 1-0[/pgn]