A Very Novel Idea Concerning Vas- BE FAIR

[Roger Brown]

Roggie baby, don't be so serious. Let people have some fun here...

Hello Damir,

No problem with a little fun but posts like that are not really Tom's strength.

I am fighting against a tide but still, I fight nonetheless.

Later.

[bob]

Hi Robert, you were one of the ones i argued against at the begining of the Rybka affair, and I can now say I was probably wrong and you were probably right.

I can't believe I long for the days when Ruffian ruled the world (or was a close second) and computer chess seemed a little simpler.

I think farther back than you. I miss the days of chasing chess 4.x, and then belle, and then deep thought. We all knew those were original programs written by people with intelligence and ethics. There were many others, of course. But now we find ourselves in a deep quagmire of dishonesty and plagiarism. And with no end in sight. In fact, it is getting worse, not better...

[bob]

Not is it is not so convenient and you now don't bother with his opinion at all...

OK, you watch someone kill somebody, with your own two eyes you see the entire act. Do you consider him innocent until he is found guilty in court? I do not. I _know_ what I saw. Same with the fruit/rybka issue. I _know_ what I saw.

It's not just a question of looking and seeing. IMO.

Go for it if you are so sure about it. I am the last who could contradict you because I am a technical layman.

But I know what I saw, namely the titles Vas got after making his program always stronger and stronger. Surely not through always finding new tricks in the old Fruit on Chrismas Eve. That is the reason why all the other programmers dont support the group of 4 or 5. 295 are just watching what is going on and possibly are shocked like me because it doesnt make sense to insinuate that Vas simply copied. Because from where came the material for all the titles???

It doesnt make sense in my eyes. I still beleive in Vasik, that's for sure. It's just not fair how his character has been torn through the mud. NB not every wrong that is done on this planet was intention to betray others. The history of the past five years should have told you a better story than what you are now so much focussed on.

There are two ways to do things. Nobody is not doubting the programming skills of Vas. But you can write your own program, or you can copy another and save 1-2-3 years of effort, and start your own effort on top of the program you copied. You might get to the same point, skill-wise. But not time-wise. And not effort-wise.

So just because Rybka became #1, one can't use that to justify copying the code of others, any more than an author could copy the plot from one book, the setting from another, the characters from a third, and form that into a best seller..

Say take the Matt Reilly book "Ice Station", change the location to South America, change the main character to willie makeit, and you would have a book that would sell. And be a knock-off at the same time.

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas. He could have cleared this up and everyone could have moved on. But silence keeps it going. In this case, it was Fabien that started the discussion for the N+1th time.

[Tom Barrister]

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas.

You made a good point, and I'm curious about it. Has Mr. Rajlich contributed anything in the forums (in any forums, not just this one) regarding chess programming, re: technical discussions, ideas, etc.?

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas.

You made a good point, and I'm curious about it. Has Mr. Rajlich contributed anything in the forums (in any forums, not just this one) regarding chess programming, re: technical discussions, ideas, etc.?

Nope....

[bob]

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas.

You made a good point, and I'm curious about it. Has Mr. Rajlich contributed anything in the forums (in any forums, not just this one) regarding chess programming, re: technical discussions, ideas, etc.?

No, although I was specifically talking about clearing up this fruit/rybka mess, as opposed to anything else...

[Rolf]

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas.

You made a good point, and I'm curious about it. Has Mr. Rajlich contributed anything in the forums (in any forums, not just this one) regarding chess programming, re: technical discussions, ideas, etc.?

No, although I was specifically talking about clearing up this fruit/rybka mess, as opposed to anything else...

But why the talks now, Fabien goes to court and everything will be solved. As you know I wanted to mediate, Vas had agreed, you at first too, but then you chickened out because Rybkaforum is zoo dangerous for you as it seemed. However on Open forum you go on promenade, that is no problem for the propaganda. Again Vas was willing to talk to you.

[Rolf]

Not is it is not so convenient and you now don't bother with his opinion at all...

OK, you watch someone kill somebody, with your own two eyes you see the entire act. Do you consider him innocent until he is found guilty in court? I do not. I _know_ what I saw. Same with the fruit/rybka issue. I _know_ what I saw.

It's not just a question of looking and seeing. IMO.

Go for it if you are so sure about it. I am the last who could contradict you because I am a technical layman.

But I know what I saw, namely the titles Vas got after making his program always stronger and stronger. Surely not through always finding new tricks in the old Fruit on Chrismas Eve. That is the reason why all the other programmers dont support the group of 4 or 5. 295 are just watching what is going on and possibly are shocked like me because it doesnt make sense to insinuate that Vas simply copied. Because from where came the material for all the titles???

It doesnt make sense in my eyes. I still beleive in Vasik, that's for sure. It's just not fair how his character has been torn through the mud. NB not every wrong that is done on this planet was intention to betray others. The history of the past five years should have told you a better story than what you are now so much focussed on.

There are two ways to do things. Nobody is not doubting the programming skills of Vas. But you can write your own program, or you can copy another and save 1-2-3 years of effort, and start your own effort on top of the program you copied. You might get to the same point, skill-wise. But not time-wise. And not effort-wise.

So just because Rybka became #1, one can't use that to justify copying the code of others, any more than an author could copy the plot from one book, the setting from another, the characters from a third, and form that into a best seller..

Say take the Matt Reilly book "Ice Station", change the location to South America, change the main character to willie makeit, and you would have a book that would sell. And be a knock-off at the same time.

BTW, what have we learned in the past 5 years? Certainly not one thing from Vas. He could have cleared this up and everyone could have moved on. But silence keeps it going. In this case, it was Fabien that started the discussion for the N+1th time.

Bob, thanks for your never tiring eloquence, but I must correct a delusion in computerchesscode once and for all. Your comparison with literature is a lame duck. The animal wont fly anymore.

1) you have no plot at all - chess is always the same outcome and since Vas is a good chessplayer he quickly understood the usual tone

2) everything in CC is technical setting. It's all thought and done. Also here no surprise. For all it cant be stolen or copied, because it's always the same. Proof: go and get a Shredder or Junior and then tell me about copying. But you dont want to do this because it would destroy your holy argument against Vas.

3) Yes, you might have characters too but they are also interchangable. Nothing new under the sun. Look, a language has emotions that it can express, but your code must play vchess and not cause you weep some tears.

4) Now the most difficult part for me as a tech lay. Yes, I think I can imagine what code means. It's a permanent linkage of ordering stuff and here comes something of an ideal effectness into play because what could cause speed and depth that will end in chesswise more correct and deep moves and taken, the chess positions allow something and are not drawish then minimalism beats ranting.

5) Vas cannot have done just copying because that wouldnt have made his code win, he won because he's the better programmer in exploiting the little possibilities where programmers could differ. Everything else is the same and copied more or less.


But I dont want to keep you away from court trials. Let Fabien learn his lessons. And you coach him. I know that you cant win such a case. Still I would prefer to applaud you and your teamsters because I want to know who the real hypocrits are in the story. It's so funny. You are talking about copying as if that were easier than writing from scratch. But layman Rolf says, it must be much more difficult. Proof: why not many walked on that same highway and became Champions? Houdini wont make it because on a single machine for two programs we have no hardware problemsolving. But in all his tournaments Vas had the best combination of software and hardware. Therefore it's boring what Martin does. Look, if I would fill you up with tons of whisky, I would be the better teacher of us in computerchess! It's a bad example but you get the drift. gringrin

[Tom Barrister]

So Mr. Rajlich hasn't contributed a thing to chess programming, other than Rybka itself? Of course, that would make sense, since he makes his living, or a substantial part of it, from the sale and license of Rybka. Or it might be that he has nothing original to contribute.

I don't understand why it's Mr. Letouzey's choice to go to court anyway. Wasn't it established that he gave the license (or whatever it's called) for Fruit to the Free Software Foundation? Wouldn't it be the prerogative of the FSF to pursue litigation?

[Tom Barrister]

But in all his tournaments Vas had the best combination of software and hardware. Therefore it's boring what Martin does

At least we've settled that they were Mr. Rajlich's tournaments. Those who didn't know better might believe that the tournaments were on the level, for example, open to anybody.

Odd how he isn't winning the tournaments that don't belong to him.